Why don't we get the same answer when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum?












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$begingroup$


Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Energy is not conserved in your setup.
    $endgroup$
    – Jasper
    2 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$


Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Energy is not conserved in your setup.
    $endgroup$
    – Jasper
    2 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?







newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision






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edited 3 hours ago









Qmechanic

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asked 3 hours ago









ToTheSpace 2ToTheSpace 2

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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Energy is not conserved in your setup.
    $endgroup$
    – Jasper
    2 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Energy is not conserved in your setup.
    $endgroup$
    – Jasper
    2 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






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2












$begingroup$

The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.



If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor




Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.



    If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.



    Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.



    The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      0












      $begingroup$

      The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.



      So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
      $$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$



      Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
      $$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$



      Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:



      $$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$



      Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)



      $$v_2+v=v$$
      or
      $$v_2=0$$



      Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.



      Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.






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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

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        active

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        active

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        2












        $begingroup$

        The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.



        If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.






        share|cite|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        $endgroup$


















          2












          $begingroup$

          The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.



          If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.






          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$
















            2












            2








            2





            $begingroup$

            The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.



            If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.






            share|cite|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            $endgroup$



            The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.



            If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.







            share|cite|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer






            New contributor




            Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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            answered 2 hours ago









            Busy MinderBusy Minder

            213




            213




            New contributor




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            New contributor





            Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            Busy Minder is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                1












                $begingroup$

                Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.



                If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.



                Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.



                The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.



                  If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.



                  Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.



                  The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.



                    If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.



                    Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.



                    The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.



                    If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.



                    Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.



                    The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 2 hours ago









                    JasperJasper

                    1,0641517




                    1,0641517























                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.



                        So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
                        $$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$



                        Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
                        $$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$



                        Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:



                        $$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$



                        Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)



                        $$v_2+v=v$$
                        or
                        $$v_2=0$$



                        Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.



                        Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.



                          So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
                          $$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$



                          Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
                          $$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$



                          Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:



                          $$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$



                          Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)



                          $$v_2+v=v$$
                          or
                          $$v_2=0$$



                          Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.



                          Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.



                            So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
                            $$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$



                            Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
                            $$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$



                            Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:



                            $$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$



                            Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)



                            $$v_2+v=v$$
                            or
                            $$v_2=0$$



                            Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.



                            Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.



                            So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
                            $$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$



                            Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
                            $$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$



                            Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:



                            $$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$



                            Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)



                            $$v_2+v=v$$
                            or
                            $$v_2=0$$



                            Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.



                            Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered 1 hour ago









                            Aaron StevensAaron Stevens

                            13k42248




                            13k42248






























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