Why don't we get the same answer when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum?
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Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?
newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?
newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision
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1
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Energy is not conserved in your setup.
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– Jasper
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?
newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision
$endgroup$
Suppose there are two objects. The first object is stationary and has the next parameters: v1=0 m/s, m1= 4kg. The second object is heading towards the first one with speed v2= 8m/s and mass m2= 60 kg. Due to collision, objects merge into one and continue to move with the velocity v3. Suppose all the energy gets converted into speed. I want to know the magnitude of velocity v3. My question is : Why do we get slightly different results when using kinetic energy compared to conservation of momentum when solving for v3. If we assume no energy gets converted into heat, couldn't we set up equations like : Ek1=0 J and Ek2=$frac{m_2*v_2^2}{2}$ . E3=E2+E1=$frac{v_3^2}{2}*(m_1+m_2)$ . v3=$sqrt{frac{(E_1+E_2)*2}{(m_1+m_2)}}$ ? Why do we get different result this way comparing to the result when we calculate v3 using conservation of momentum?
newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision
newtonian-mechanics energy momentum energy-conservation collision
edited 3 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
106k121941220
106k121941220
asked 3 hours ago
ToTheSpace 2ToTheSpace 2
111
111
1
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Energy is not conserved in your setup.
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– Jasper
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
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The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.
If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.
New contributor
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Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.
If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.
Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.
The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.
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add a comment |
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The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.
So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
$$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$
Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
$$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$
Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:
$$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$
Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)
$$v_2+v=v$$
or
$$v_2=0$$
Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.
Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.
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add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.
If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.
If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.
If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.
New contributor
$endgroup$
The objects are merged, and an inelastic collision is one in which objects stick together after impact: kinetic energy is not conserved. Therefore, you can't assume that kinetic energy is conserved; merging takes a little bit of energy.
If this system is isolated, and no force acted upon neither of the two objects, then, momentum is conserved; hence, you can calculate the final velocity using the momentum's equation.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 hours ago
Busy MinderBusy Minder
213
213
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.
If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.
Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.
The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.
If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.
Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.
The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.
If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.
Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.
The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.
$endgroup$
Momentum is conserved if there are no external forces involved. This is the case in your setup, so the final velocity you get from conservation of momentum is right.
If you start with conservation of energy, you'll see that you get a different velocity.
Since physicists strongly believe in conservation of energy, this means that some of the mechanical energy went somewhere. This is a strong hint that you can not assume conservation of mechanical energy at will. If you assume both conservation of momentum and energy, the bodies can't stick together and move as one.
The "sticking" eats up some energy that is lost on the mechanical side.
answered 2 hours ago
JasperJasper
1,0641517
1,0641517
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.
So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
$$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$
Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
$$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$
Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:
$$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$
Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)
$$v_2+v=v$$
or
$$v_2=0$$
Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.
Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.
So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
$$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$
Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
$$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$
Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:
$$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$
Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)
$$v_2+v=v$$
or
$$v_2=0$$
Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.
Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.
So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
$$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$
Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
$$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$
Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:
$$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$
Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)
$$v_2+v=v$$
or
$$v_2=0$$
Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.
Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.
$endgroup$
The other answers are correct in saying that energy is not conserved, but I feel like they are lacking in truly showing why this is the case. So let's assume energy and momentum are both conserved in this process and see that we arrive at a contradiction.
So we have object 1 at rest and object 2 hits it and they stick together. Using momentum conservation:
$$m_2v_2=m_1v+m_2v$$
Using energy conservation (cancelling $1/2$ terms):
$$m_2v_2^2=m_1v^2+m_2v^2$$
Now for fun tricks. In each of the above equations let's get all terms involving object 2 on the left and all terms involving object 1 on the right and then divide the energy equation by the momentum equation:
$$frac{m_2(v_2^2-v^2)}{m_2(v_2-v)}=frac{m_1v^2}{m_1v}$$
Now, $v_2^2-v^2=(v_2-v)(v_2+v)$, therefore (cancelling many things)
$$v_2+v=v$$
or
$$v_2=0$$
Uh oh. We see that before the collision object 2 is at rest. But object 1 was at rest also. Therefore no collision with these properties could have occurred. Therefore something is wrong with our assumptions of both energy and momentum conservation.
Momentum has to be conserved since there are no external forces on the system. Therefore it must be that energy is not conserved. There is nothing saying energy must be conserved here, but we have now shown that it actually cannot be conserved.
answered 1 hour ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
13k42248
13k42248
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Energy is not conserved in your setup.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
2 hours ago