If the DM rolls initiative once for a group of monsters, how do end-of-turn effects work?












4












$begingroup$


A wizard rounds a corner to find two kobolds brandishing their weapons. Roll initiative!



The DM determines that neither side is surprised. The DM then makes a single initiative roll (10) for the two kobolds, since they are identical creatures (PHB, p. 189). The wizard has a great roll (15) and goes first.



The wizard decides that it's better to be safe than sorry and upcasts hold person to 3rd-level, targeting both kobolds. One kobold fails the save and becomes paralyzed, but the other (miraculously) succeeds. The wizard now feels confident in their success and closes to within 5 feet of both kobolds.



It's time for the kobolds to act. Kobolds have the Pack Tactics trait, which grants them advantage on attack rolls against a creature if a non-incapacitated ally is within 5 feet of that creature. One of the kobolds is paralyzed, which means it is also incapacitated. Hold person grants an additional save at the end of the affected kobold's turns.



Each kobold should have their own turn, but does one turn complete before the other, possibly allowing the paralyzed kobold to save vs hold person? In short, is there any way that the non-paralyzed kobold gains advantage from Pack Tactics on this initiative count this round?






dnd-5e spells combat saving-throw initiative







share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    4












    $begingroup$


    A wizard rounds a corner to find two kobolds brandishing their weapons. Roll initiative!



    The DM determines that neither side is surprised. The DM then makes a single initiative roll (10) for the two kobolds, since they are identical creatures (PHB, p. 189). The wizard has a great roll (15) and goes first.



    The wizard decides that it's better to be safe than sorry and upcasts hold person to 3rd-level, targeting both kobolds. One kobold fails the save and becomes paralyzed, but the other (miraculously) succeeds. The wizard now feels confident in their success and closes to within 5 feet of both kobolds.



    It's time for the kobolds to act. Kobolds have the Pack Tactics trait, which grants them advantage on attack rolls against a creature if a non-incapacitated ally is within 5 feet of that creature. One of the kobolds is paralyzed, which means it is also incapacitated. Hold person grants an additional save at the end of the affected kobold's turns.



    Each kobold should have their own turn, but does one turn complete before the other, possibly allowing the paralyzed kobold to save vs hold person? In short, is there any way that the non-paralyzed kobold gains advantage from Pack Tactics on this initiative count this round?






    dnd-5e spells combat saving-throw initiative







    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      A wizard rounds a corner to find two kobolds brandishing their weapons. Roll initiative!



      The DM determines that neither side is surprised. The DM then makes a single initiative roll (10) for the two kobolds, since they are identical creatures (PHB, p. 189). The wizard has a great roll (15) and goes first.



      The wizard decides that it's better to be safe than sorry and upcasts hold person to 3rd-level, targeting both kobolds. One kobold fails the save and becomes paralyzed, but the other (miraculously) succeeds. The wizard now feels confident in their success and closes to within 5 feet of both kobolds.



      It's time for the kobolds to act. Kobolds have the Pack Tactics trait, which grants them advantage on attack rolls against a creature if a non-incapacitated ally is within 5 feet of that creature. One of the kobolds is paralyzed, which means it is also incapacitated. Hold person grants an additional save at the end of the affected kobold's turns.



      Each kobold should have their own turn, but does one turn complete before the other, possibly allowing the paralyzed kobold to save vs hold person? In short, is there any way that the non-paralyzed kobold gains advantage from Pack Tactics on this initiative count this round?






      dnd-5e spells combat saving-throw initiative







      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      A wizard rounds a corner to find two kobolds brandishing their weapons. Roll initiative!



      The DM determines that neither side is surprised. The DM then makes a single initiative roll (10) for the two kobolds, since they are identical creatures (PHB, p. 189). The wizard has a great roll (15) and goes first.



      The wizard decides that it's better to be safe than sorry and upcasts hold person to 3rd-level, targeting both kobolds. One kobold fails the save and becomes paralyzed, but the other (miraculously) succeeds. The wizard now feels confident in their success and closes to within 5 feet of both kobolds.



      It's time for the kobolds to act. Kobolds have the Pack Tactics trait, which grants them advantage on attack rolls against a creature if a non-incapacitated ally is within 5 feet of that creature. One of the kobolds is paralyzed, which means it is also incapacitated. Hold person grants an additional save at the end of the affected kobold's turns.



      Each kobold should have their own turn, but does one turn complete before the other, possibly allowing the paralyzed kobold to save vs hold person? In short, is there any way that the non-paralyzed kobold gains advantage from Pack Tactics on this initiative count this round?






      dnd-5e spells combat saving-throw initiative




      dnd-5e spells combat saving-throw initiative






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 4 hours ago







      Chris Starnes

















      asked 4 hours ago









      Chris StarnesChris Starnes

      3,1921722




      3,1921722






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          4












          $begingroup$

          The monsters act in an order of the DM's choosing.



          This is implied in the rules for Initiative in the Basic Rules (emphasis mine):




          ...When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same tim.... the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures...




          In the full context of that rules passage, the DM decides ties among creatures who roll the same initiative count. When rolling initiative once for a group of monsters, the entire group shares the same initiative count. Therefore, the DM can decide the order that those monsters act, since they are effectively tied.



          Thus, the DM will probably decide either the most favorable order for their monsters or the most satisfying order for the agency of the players. In your example, it would be in the monsters' favor to let the kobold save out of paralysis first to possibly allow its ally to leverage Pack Tactics; it would be in the wizard's favor to reverse that order. Either is within the DM's purview, and the DM should decide based on the pace of the encounter and what works best for the table and the group.



          Note that the DM might decide that order dynamically each round or might decide it statically once at the start of combat. The rules can be read to support either style. However, in my experience as a DM, it's very hard to remember a static order among a bunch of identical creatures and is in general not worth the effort as long as you don't disproportionately favor the monsters over the players.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
            $endgroup$
            – V2Blast
            3 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
            $endgroup$
            – Bloodcinder
            2 hours ago











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
          });
          });
          }, "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "122"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });














          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143265%2fif-the-dm-rolls-initiative-once-for-a-group-of-monsters-how-do-end-of-turn-effe%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          4












          $begingroup$

          The monsters act in an order of the DM's choosing.



          This is implied in the rules for Initiative in the Basic Rules (emphasis mine):




          ...When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same tim.... the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures...




          In the full context of that rules passage, the DM decides ties among creatures who roll the same initiative count. When rolling initiative once for a group of monsters, the entire group shares the same initiative count. Therefore, the DM can decide the order that those monsters act, since they are effectively tied.



          Thus, the DM will probably decide either the most favorable order for their monsters or the most satisfying order for the agency of the players. In your example, it would be in the monsters' favor to let the kobold save out of paralysis first to possibly allow its ally to leverage Pack Tactics; it would be in the wizard's favor to reverse that order. Either is within the DM's purview, and the DM should decide based on the pace of the encounter and what works best for the table and the group.



          Note that the DM might decide that order dynamically each round or might decide it statically once at the start of combat. The rules can be read to support either style. However, in my experience as a DM, it's very hard to remember a static order among a bunch of identical creatures and is in general not worth the effort as long as you don't disproportionately favor the monsters over the players.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
            $endgroup$
            – V2Blast
            3 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
            $endgroup$
            – Bloodcinder
            2 hours ago
















          4












          $begingroup$

          The monsters act in an order of the DM's choosing.



          This is implied in the rules for Initiative in the Basic Rules (emphasis mine):




          ...When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same tim.... the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures...




          In the full context of that rules passage, the DM decides ties among creatures who roll the same initiative count. When rolling initiative once for a group of monsters, the entire group shares the same initiative count. Therefore, the DM can decide the order that those monsters act, since they are effectively tied.



          Thus, the DM will probably decide either the most favorable order for their monsters or the most satisfying order for the agency of the players. In your example, it would be in the monsters' favor to let the kobold save out of paralysis first to possibly allow its ally to leverage Pack Tactics; it would be in the wizard's favor to reverse that order. Either is within the DM's purview, and the DM should decide based on the pace of the encounter and what works best for the table and the group.



          Note that the DM might decide that order dynamically each round or might decide it statically once at the start of combat. The rules can be read to support either style. However, in my experience as a DM, it's very hard to remember a static order among a bunch of identical creatures and is in general not worth the effort as long as you don't disproportionately favor the monsters over the players.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
            $endgroup$
            – V2Blast
            3 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
            $endgroup$
            – Bloodcinder
            2 hours ago














          4












          4








          4





          $begingroup$

          The monsters act in an order of the DM's choosing.



          This is implied in the rules for Initiative in the Basic Rules (emphasis mine):




          ...When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same tim.... the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures...




          In the full context of that rules passage, the DM decides ties among creatures who roll the same initiative count. When rolling initiative once for a group of monsters, the entire group shares the same initiative count. Therefore, the DM can decide the order that those monsters act, since they are effectively tied.



          Thus, the DM will probably decide either the most favorable order for their monsters or the most satisfying order for the agency of the players. In your example, it would be in the monsters' favor to let the kobold save out of paralysis first to possibly allow its ally to leverage Pack Tactics; it would be in the wizard's favor to reverse that order. Either is within the DM's purview, and the DM should decide based on the pace of the encounter and what works best for the table and the group.



          Note that the DM might decide that order dynamically each round or might decide it statically once at the start of combat. The rules can be read to support either style. However, in my experience as a DM, it's very hard to remember a static order among a bunch of identical creatures and is in general not worth the effort as long as you don't disproportionately favor the monsters over the players.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          The monsters act in an order of the DM's choosing.



          This is implied in the rules for Initiative in the Basic Rules (emphasis mine):




          ...When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same tim.... the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures...




          In the full context of that rules passage, the DM decides ties among creatures who roll the same initiative count. When rolling initiative once for a group of monsters, the entire group shares the same initiative count. Therefore, the DM can decide the order that those monsters act, since they are effectively tied.



          Thus, the DM will probably decide either the most favorable order for their monsters or the most satisfying order for the agency of the players. In your example, it would be in the monsters' favor to let the kobold save out of paralysis first to possibly allow its ally to leverage Pack Tactics; it would be in the wizard's favor to reverse that order. Either is within the DM's purview, and the DM should decide based on the pace of the encounter and what works best for the table and the group.



          Note that the DM might decide that order dynamically each round or might decide it statically once at the start of combat. The rules can be read to support either style. However, in my experience as a DM, it's very hard to remember a static order among a bunch of identical creatures and is in general not worth the effort as long as you don't disproportionately favor the monsters over the players.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 hours ago

























          answered 3 hours ago









          BloodcinderBloodcinder

          22.5k380139




          22.5k380139












          • $begingroup$
            It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
            $endgroup$
            – V2Blast
            3 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
            $endgroup$
            – Bloodcinder
            2 hours ago


















          • $begingroup$
            It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
            $endgroup$
            – V2Blast
            3 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
            $endgroup$
            – Bloodcinder
            2 hours ago
















          $begingroup$
          It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
          $endgroup$
          – V2Blast
          3 hours ago






          $begingroup$
          It might be worth noting that, according to Jeremy Crawford, the intent is: "The initiative rules assume that ties are sorted out when a tie first occurs. But a DM might allow the choice to occur each round." (The tweet was originally made in the context of controlled mounts having their own turn on the rider's initiative, either before or after the rider's turn.)
          $endgroup$
          – V2Blast
          3 hours ago






          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
          $endgroup$
          – Bloodcinder
          2 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          I've sworn off quoting Jeremy Crawford going forward. You might consider spinning that into your own answer. I will add a paragraph about whether the DM should choose a static or dynamic order, however.
          $endgroup$
          – Bloodcinder
          2 hours ago


















          draft saved

          draft discarded




















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid …



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143265%2fif-the-dm-rolls-initiative-once-for-a-group-of-monsters-how-do-end-of-turn-effe%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          -

          Popular posts from this blog

          Loup dans la culture

          Image
          Loups sur une enluminure du Bestiaire d'Aberdeen Le loup est l'animal le plus emblématique de l'histoire de l'Eurasie, il était à l'honneur durant l'Antiquité chez la totalité des anciens peuples européens [ 1 ] . Sommaire 1 Le loup dans la mythologie 2 Les loups dans le folklore 2.1 L'évolution des mentalités 2.2 Le loup dans la psychanalyse 3 Le loup dans les œuvres culturelles 3.1 Le loup dans la littérature 3.1.1 Fables 3.1.2 Poésie 3.1.3 Romans 3.1.4 Littérature jeunesse 3.1.4.1 Quelques titres d'albums contemporains 3.1.5 Bande dessinée 3.2 Le loup à l'écran 3.2.1 Le cinéma et la télévision 3.2.2 Documentaires 3.2.3 Dessins animés 3.2.4 Jeux vidéo 3.3 Le loup en peinture et en sculpture 3.4 Le loup dans les œuvres musicales 4 Le loup et les noms propres 5 Bibliographie 6 Notes et références 7 Voir aussi 7.1 Articles connexes ...
          Read more

          How to solve the problem of ntp “Unable to contact time server” from KDE?

          Image
          1 0 I want to set date and time automatically but this error appears when I try to .. I'm using openSUSE, I tried different servers but it didn't work either, help please! It doesn't seem to be a network problem: $ ping pool.ntp.org 64 bytes from 41.78.128.17: icmp_seq=1 ttl=41 time=260 ms To the question of whether ntpd is installed and running: $ ps -C ntpd PID TTY TIME CMD i.e. there's no ntpd process running. $ rpm -qa | grep ntp yast2-ntp-client-3.1.12-1.7.noarch ntp-4.2.6p5-25.2.1.i586 Further information from the comments: $ sudo ntpdate pool.ntp.org 25 Sep 19:41:51 ntpdate[3162]: no server suitable for synchronization found networking kde opensuse ntp ntpd sh...
          Read more

          ASUS Zenbook UX433/UX333 — Configure Touchpad-embedded numpad on Linux

          Image
          0 1 I have an ASUS Zenbook UX433,on which ASUS decided to innovate by embedding a Numpad inside the touchpad (see picture 1). Toggling between classic touchpad mode and numpad (also turns the touchpad LEDs on) can be done through the golden button in the top-right corner of the touchpad. However, on my Manjaro arch Linux config, this behavior does not work by default and I can only use the touchpad, no numpad. Has anyone been able to configure the numpad to work on Linux, or have any idea how this could be achieved? EDIT1: I have had a look at the official Windows drivers for the UX433FA TouchPad, but was not able to make anything of it. I tried installing them on Linux using tools like NDISWrapper, but they do not detect the TouchPad/Numpad hardware, and my understanding of drivers is too limited. ...
          Read more