Can Congress end the government shutdown without the President's agreement?












21















Negotiations over the current US government shutdown have, as far as I've heard, mainly been between the President and Congressional Democrats. So far, Republicans in Congress seem to be siding with the President in refusing any agreement not including a border wall, but there seem to be some cracks in this.



Suppose that a sufficient number of Congressional Republicans decided to break with the President and reached an agreement with Democrats, but which the President still found unacceptable. As I understand it, both houses of Congress could pass a spending bill along those lines. The President might then veto it (he could stall for up to 10 days first). Suppose, however, that Congress had the votes to override the veto (2/3 of each house).



If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?



I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.










share|improve this question























  • You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

    – Eric Lippert
    9 hours ago













  • @EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago











  • @EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago
















21















Negotiations over the current US government shutdown have, as far as I've heard, mainly been between the President and Congressional Democrats. So far, Republicans in Congress seem to be siding with the President in refusing any agreement not including a border wall, but there seem to be some cracks in this.



Suppose that a sufficient number of Congressional Republicans decided to break with the President and reached an agreement with Democrats, but which the President still found unacceptable. As I understand it, both houses of Congress could pass a spending bill along those lines. The President might then veto it (he could stall for up to 10 days first). Suppose, however, that Congress had the votes to override the veto (2/3 of each house).



If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?



I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.










share|improve this question























  • You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

    – Eric Lippert
    9 hours ago













  • @EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago











  • @EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago














21












21








21


2






Negotiations over the current US government shutdown have, as far as I've heard, mainly been between the President and Congressional Democrats. So far, Republicans in Congress seem to be siding with the President in refusing any agreement not including a border wall, but there seem to be some cracks in this.



Suppose that a sufficient number of Congressional Republicans decided to break with the President and reached an agreement with Democrats, but which the President still found unacceptable. As I understand it, both houses of Congress could pass a spending bill along those lines. The President might then veto it (he could stall for up to 10 days first). Suppose, however, that Congress had the votes to override the veto (2/3 of each house).



If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?



I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.










share|improve this question














Negotiations over the current US government shutdown have, as far as I've heard, mainly been between the President and Congressional Democrats. So far, Republicans in Congress seem to be siding with the President in refusing any agreement not including a border wall, but there seem to be some cracks in this.



Suppose that a sufficient number of Congressional Republicans decided to break with the President and reached an agreement with Democrats, but which the President still found unacceptable. As I understand it, both houses of Congress could pass a spending bill along those lines. The President might then veto it (he could stall for up to 10 days first). Suppose, however, that Congress had the votes to override the veto (2/3 of each house).



If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?



I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.







united-states president congress government-shutdown veto






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 16 hours ago









Nate EldredgeNate Eldredge

461314




461314













  • You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

    – Eric Lippert
    9 hours ago













  • @EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago











  • @EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago



















  • You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

    – Eric Lippert
    9 hours ago













  • @EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago











  • @EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

    – Nate Eldredge
    6 hours ago

















You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

– Eric Lippert
9 hours ago







You mention a "sufficient number"; perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "sufficient". Suppose for instance that 99 of the 100 senators wish to pass a bill, and the 100th who does not is the Senate Majority Leader, who controls whether bills get a vote at all. Is 52 Republicans and 47 Democrats "sufficient" in this scenario, or not?

– Eric Lippert
9 hours ago















@EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

– Nate Eldredge
6 hours ago





@EricLippert: Well, enough to pass a bill. I didn't want to quibble about the details. Replace "sufficient number" with "sufficient set" if you prefer.

– Nate Eldredge
6 hours ago













@EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

– Nate Eldredge
6 hours ago





@EricLippert: Also, it seems to be presumed that 27 Republicans could remove the Majority Leader and replace him with someone more sympathetic, though apparently it has never happened.

– Nate Eldredge
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















39














If Congress has the 2/3 votes to override a Presidential veto, they can pass any budget they want with zero consideration for what the President thinks. Ever since the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, the President no longer has the authority to refuse spending Congressionally allocated funds.



Therefore Republicans are free to end the shutdown by agreeing not to allocate funds for the Mexico Wall and obtaining the required number of votes from the Democrats. Likewise the Democrats could agree to fund the wall and obtain the necessary votes from the Republicans. Which side to blame for the shutdown is up to you.






share|improve this answer



















  • 6





    If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

    – WBT
    13 hours ago








  • 5





    @WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

    – reirab
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

    – Draco18s
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

    – Katie S
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    @KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

    – JonathanReez
    9 hours ago



















13















If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?




This would end the shutdown.




I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.




Congress appropriates money for specific purposes. Unless Congress specifically delegates authority to someone else in the Executive branch, every dollar is supposed to be spent as stipulated in appropriations legislation. The President choosing to do something else with the money (including not spend it) would be illegal and likely be subject to a court challenge, and has been in the past.



It is also worth noting that as a purely tactical matter, there would be no value in trying to continue the shutdown in some sneaky way in the event of a veto override, because that much popular support in ending a shutdown in that fashion would mean that the President would never get what he wants from even his own party in Congress. The only reason the shutdown is continuing now is under the theory that some number of Democrats would agree to give him something he wants (e.g. if not the stated wish for $5 billion dollars for "The Wall" then some less significant but still desirable thing).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 7





    Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

    – T.E.D.
    10 hours ago













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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









39














If Congress has the 2/3 votes to override a Presidential veto, they can pass any budget they want with zero consideration for what the President thinks. Ever since the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, the President no longer has the authority to refuse spending Congressionally allocated funds.



Therefore Republicans are free to end the shutdown by agreeing not to allocate funds for the Mexico Wall and obtaining the required number of votes from the Democrats. Likewise the Democrats could agree to fund the wall and obtain the necessary votes from the Republicans. Which side to blame for the shutdown is up to you.






share|improve this answer



















  • 6





    If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

    – WBT
    13 hours ago








  • 5





    @WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

    – reirab
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

    – Draco18s
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

    – Katie S
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    @KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

    – JonathanReez
    9 hours ago
















39














If Congress has the 2/3 votes to override a Presidential veto, they can pass any budget they want with zero consideration for what the President thinks. Ever since the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, the President no longer has the authority to refuse spending Congressionally allocated funds.



Therefore Republicans are free to end the shutdown by agreeing not to allocate funds for the Mexico Wall and obtaining the required number of votes from the Democrats. Likewise the Democrats could agree to fund the wall and obtain the necessary votes from the Republicans. Which side to blame for the shutdown is up to you.






share|improve this answer



















  • 6





    If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

    – WBT
    13 hours ago








  • 5





    @WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

    – reirab
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

    – Draco18s
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

    – Katie S
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    @KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

    – JonathanReez
    9 hours ago














39












39








39







If Congress has the 2/3 votes to override a Presidential veto, they can pass any budget they want with zero consideration for what the President thinks. Ever since the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, the President no longer has the authority to refuse spending Congressionally allocated funds.



Therefore Republicans are free to end the shutdown by agreeing not to allocate funds for the Mexico Wall and obtaining the required number of votes from the Democrats. Likewise the Democrats could agree to fund the wall and obtain the necessary votes from the Republicans. Which side to blame for the shutdown is up to you.






share|improve this answer













If Congress has the 2/3 votes to override a Presidential veto, they can pass any budget they want with zero consideration for what the President thinks. Ever since the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, the President no longer has the authority to refuse spending Congressionally allocated funds.



Therefore Republicans are free to end the shutdown by agreeing not to allocate funds for the Mexico Wall and obtaining the required number of votes from the Democrats. Likewise the Democrats could agree to fund the wall and obtain the necessary votes from the Republicans. Which side to blame for the shutdown is up to you.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 16 hours ago









JonathanReezJonathanReez

13.1k1375149




13.1k1375149








  • 6





    If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

    – WBT
    13 hours ago








  • 5





    @WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

    – reirab
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

    – Draco18s
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

    – Katie S
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    @KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

    – JonathanReez
    9 hours ago














  • 6





    If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

    – WBT
    13 hours ago








  • 5





    @WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

    – reirab
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    @Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

    – Draco18s
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

    – Katie S
    9 hours ago






  • 4





    @KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

    – JonathanReez
    9 hours ago








6




6





If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

– WBT
13 hours ago







If the Democrats agreed to allocate funds for the wall, the vote threshold would probably come down to 50%+1 as there would no longer be a need to override a veto.

– WBT
13 hours ago






5




5





@WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

– reirab
12 hours ago





@WBT There would still be 60% needed in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (which is why the budget that did include the wall funding died upon reaching the Senate after passing in the House.)

– reirab
12 hours ago




1




1





@Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

– Draco18s
11 hours ago







@Trilarion While technically true, if the Senate passed it, it'd go to the house, where it would be highly likely to pass again. Or the Senate could approve H.R.266, which the house passed on the 11th and is virtually identical to the Senate bill that was passed last year. So that distinction is basically meaningless.

– Draco18s
11 hours ago






1




1





The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

– Katie S
9 hours ago





The Senate majority leader McConnell refuses to allow a vote on the budget, so you cannot have 2/3 votes if there's no voting session at all - hence the shutdown.

– Katie S
9 hours ago




4




4





@KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

– JonathanReez
9 hours ago





@KatieS he could be removed from power if enough senators vote against him

– JonathanReez
9 hours ago











13















If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?




This would end the shutdown.




I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.




Congress appropriates money for specific purposes. Unless Congress specifically delegates authority to someone else in the Executive branch, every dollar is supposed to be spent as stipulated in appropriations legislation. The President choosing to do something else with the money (including not spend it) would be illegal and likely be subject to a court challenge, and has been in the past.



It is also worth noting that as a purely tactical matter, there would be no value in trying to continue the shutdown in some sneaky way in the event of a veto override, because that much popular support in ending a shutdown in that fashion would mean that the President would never get what he wants from even his own party in Congress. The only reason the shutdown is continuing now is under the theory that some number of Democrats would agree to give him something he wants (e.g. if not the stated wish for $5 billion dollars for "The Wall" then some less significant but still desirable thing).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 7





    Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

    – T.E.D.
    10 hours ago


















13















If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?




This would end the shutdown.




I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.




Congress appropriates money for specific purposes. Unless Congress specifically delegates authority to someone else in the Executive branch, every dollar is supposed to be spent as stipulated in appropriations legislation. The President choosing to do something else with the money (including not spend it) would be illegal and likely be subject to a court challenge, and has been in the past.



It is also worth noting that as a purely tactical matter, there would be no value in trying to continue the shutdown in some sneaky way in the event of a veto override, because that much popular support in ending a shutdown in that fashion would mean that the President would never get what he wants from even his own party in Congress. The only reason the shutdown is continuing now is under the theory that some number of Democrats would agree to give him something he wants (e.g. if not the stated wish for $5 billion dollars for "The Wall" then some less significant but still desirable thing).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 7





    Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

    – T.E.D.
    10 hours ago
















13












13








13








If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?




This would end the shutdown.




I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.




Congress appropriates money for specific purposes. Unless Congress specifically delegates authority to someone else in the Executive branch, every dollar is supposed to be spent as stipulated in appropriations legislation. The President choosing to do something else with the money (including not spend it) would be illegal and likely be subject to a court challenge, and has been in the past.



It is also worth noting that as a purely tactical matter, there would be no value in trying to continue the shutdown in some sneaky way in the event of a veto override, because that much popular support in ending a shutdown in that fashion would mean that the President would never get what he wants from even his own party in Congress. The only reason the shutdown is continuing now is under the theory that some number of Democrats would agree to give him something he wants (e.g. if not the stated wish for $5 billion dollars for "The Wall" then some less significant but still desirable thing).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











If they were to override his veto, would this end the shutdown, or would the President somehow be able to continue it anyway?




This would end the shutdown.




I wonder if there is any argument that, even if Congress allocates money for the Government, it is up to the President to decide whether to actually spend it.




Congress appropriates money for specific purposes. Unless Congress specifically delegates authority to someone else in the Executive branch, every dollar is supposed to be spent as stipulated in appropriations legislation. The President choosing to do something else with the money (including not spend it) would be illegal and likely be subject to a court challenge, and has been in the past.



It is also worth noting that as a purely tactical matter, there would be no value in trying to continue the shutdown in some sneaky way in the event of a veto override, because that much popular support in ending a shutdown in that fashion would mean that the President would never get what he wants from even his own party in Congress. The only reason the shutdown is continuing now is under the theory that some number of Democrats would agree to give him something he wants (e.g. if not the stated wish for $5 billion dollars for "The Wall" then some less significant but still desirable thing).







share|improve this answer








New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered 16 hours ago









JoeJoe

4695




4695




New contributor




Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Joe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 7





    Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

    – T.E.D.
    10 hours ago
















  • 7





    Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

    – T.E.D.
    10 hours ago










7




7





Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

– T.E.D.
10 hours ago







Also, if the POTUS for some weird reason gets really sore about not having a shutdown anymore, he could just wait until this spring/summer when the country hits the debt ceiling, and start this circus all over again (but with the entire government).

– T.E.D.
10 hours ago




















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