How was the Mekoshesh given the death penalty if the punishment wasn't known yet?












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How was the Mekoshesh given the death penalty if the punishment wasn't known yet, so he couldn't have been warned, being that the warning must contain the exact punishment for that act?










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How was the Mekoshesh given the death penalty if the punishment wasn't known yet, so he couldn't have been warned, being that the warning must contain the exact punishment for that act?










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  • Follow-up question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/99084

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago














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How was the Mekoshesh given the death penalty if the punishment wasn't known yet, so he couldn't have been warned, being that the warning must contain the exact punishment for that act?










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How was the Mekoshesh given the death penalty if the punishment wasn't known yet, so he couldn't have been warned, being that the warning must contain the exact punishment for that act?







shabbat parshanut-torah-comment capital-punishment parashat-shelach






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  • Follow-up question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/99084

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago



















  • Follow-up question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/99084

    – DonielF
    1 hour ago

















Follow-up question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/99084

– DonielF
1 hour ago





Follow-up question: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/99084

– DonielF
1 hour ago










2 Answers
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This is addressed by Sanhedrin 80b. It’s a dispute to begin with whether the particular form of death needs to be specified in the warning:




תניא ושאר חייבי מיתות שבתורה אין ממיתין אותן אלא בעדה ועדים והתראה ועד שיודיעוהו שהוא חייב מיתת ב"ד רבי יהודה אומר עד שיודיעוהו באיזה מיתה הוא נהרג



We taught in a Braisa: For all others that make liable to death from the Torah, we don’t kill them except with a court, witnesses, warning, and until they warn him that he’s liable to death. R’ Yehudah says: until they tell him with which death he will be killed.




The Gemara continues, explaining the Mekoshesh:




ת"ק יליף ממקושש ורבי יהודה אומר מקושש הוראת שעה היתה:



The Tanna Kamma learns this from the Mekoshesh, and R’ Yehudah says, the Mekoshesh was a hora’as sha’ah.




According to the Tanna Kamma, just as the Mekoshesh was warned that he’d be put to death but not which one, so, too, all warnings for the death penalty. According to R’ Yehudah, that case was uniquely instructed by Hashem.



Now, they did know that one who violates Shabbos is liable to death; the only question was which one. To quote the Gemara ibid. 78b:




תניא יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר (שמות לא, יד) מחלליה מות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזו מיתה נהרג שנאמר (במדבר טו, לד) כי לא פורש



It was taught in a Braisa: Moshe knew that the Mekoshesh was to be put to death, as it says, “One who violates [Shabbos] will be put to death,” but he didn’t know with which death he should be killed, as it says, “It was not explained.”







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    2














    Rashi and Rav Hirsch explain that Hashem had already commanded that he was subject to the death penalty, but they did not yet know the precise manner of the punishment.



    Shlach Lecha 15:34




    They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be
    done to him.




    Rashi




    since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he
    should be executed. But they did know that one who
    desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]




    Rav Hirsch explains that




    But here: כי לא פרש מה יעשה לו, that it was a capital crime punishable
    by death was in no doubt, מחלליה מות יומת (Exodus XXXI,14) had already
    been proclaimed, the only doubt was מה יעשה לו, which form of death
    was to be administered. יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר מחלליה
    םות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזה מיתה נהרג (Sanhedrin 78b).
    Nevertheless, the התראה was legally sufficient, for all that is
    required is שהתרו בו סתם that he is told that what he does is a
    capital crime (Ibid 80b). But in the opinion of רב יהודה any התראה is
    incomplete if the actual form of the death to which he is liable is
    not specified to the criminal, then the killing of the מקושש was a
    special case, an הוראת שעה dictated directly by Hashem and cannot be
    used as an example for the general practice.




    Shlach Lecha 15:35




    הוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה מ֥וֹת יוּמַ֖ת הָאִ֑ישׁ רָג֨וֹם אֹת֤וֹ
    בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ כָּל־הָ֣עֵדָ֔ה מִח֖וּץ לַמַּֽחֲנֶֽה







    share|improve this answer































      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      4














      This is addressed by Sanhedrin 80b. It’s a dispute to begin with whether the particular form of death needs to be specified in the warning:




      תניא ושאר חייבי מיתות שבתורה אין ממיתין אותן אלא בעדה ועדים והתראה ועד שיודיעוהו שהוא חייב מיתת ב"ד רבי יהודה אומר עד שיודיעוהו באיזה מיתה הוא נהרג



      We taught in a Braisa: For all others that make liable to death from the Torah, we don’t kill them except with a court, witnesses, warning, and until they warn him that he’s liable to death. R’ Yehudah says: until they tell him with which death he will be killed.




      The Gemara continues, explaining the Mekoshesh:




      ת"ק יליף ממקושש ורבי יהודה אומר מקושש הוראת שעה היתה:



      The Tanna Kamma learns this from the Mekoshesh, and R’ Yehudah says, the Mekoshesh was a hora’as sha’ah.




      According to the Tanna Kamma, just as the Mekoshesh was warned that he’d be put to death but not which one, so, too, all warnings for the death penalty. According to R’ Yehudah, that case was uniquely instructed by Hashem.



      Now, they did know that one who violates Shabbos is liable to death; the only question was which one. To quote the Gemara ibid. 78b:




      תניא יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר (שמות לא, יד) מחלליה מות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזו מיתה נהרג שנאמר (במדבר טו, לד) כי לא פורש



      It was taught in a Braisa: Moshe knew that the Mekoshesh was to be put to death, as it says, “One who violates [Shabbos] will be put to death,” but he didn’t know with which death he should be killed, as it says, “It was not explained.”







      share|improve this answer




























        4














        This is addressed by Sanhedrin 80b. It’s a dispute to begin with whether the particular form of death needs to be specified in the warning:




        תניא ושאר חייבי מיתות שבתורה אין ממיתין אותן אלא בעדה ועדים והתראה ועד שיודיעוהו שהוא חייב מיתת ב"ד רבי יהודה אומר עד שיודיעוהו באיזה מיתה הוא נהרג



        We taught in a Braisa: For all others that make liable to death from the Torah, we don’t kill them except with a court, witnesses, warning, and until they warn him that he’s liable to death. R’ Yehudah says: until they tell him with which death he will be killed.




        The Gemara continues, explaining the Mekoshesh:




        ת"ק יליף ממקושש ורבי יהודה אומר מקושש הוראת שעה היתה:



        The Tanna Kamma learns this from the Mekoshesh, and R’ Yehudah says, the Mekoshesh was a hora’as sha’ah.




        According to the Tanna Kamma, just as the Mekoshesh was warned that he’d be put to death but not which one, so, too, all warnings for the death penalty. According to R’ Yehudah, that case was uniquely instructed by Hashem.



        Now, they did know that one who violates Shabbos is liable to death; the only question was which one. To quote the Gemara ibid. 78b:




        תניא יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר (שמות לא, יד) מחלליה מות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזו מיתה נהרג שנאמר (במדבר טו, לד) כי לא פורש



        It was taught in a Braisa: Moshe knew that the Mekoshesh was to be put to death, as it says, “One who violates [Shabbos] will be put to death,” but he didn’t know with which death he should be killed, as it says, “It was not explained.”







        share|improve this answer


























          4












          4








          4







          This is addressed by Sanhedrin 80b. It’s a dispute to begin with whether the particular form of death needs to be specified in the warning:




          תניא ושאר חייבי מיתות שבתורה אין ממיתין אותן אלא בעדה ועדים והתראה ועד שיודיעוהו שהוא חייב מיתת ב"ד רבי יהודה אומר עד שיודיעוהו באיזה מיתה הוא נהרג



          We taught in a Braisa: For all others that make liable to death from the Torah, we don’t kill them except with a court, witnesses, warning, and until they warn him that he’s liable to death. R’ Yehudah says: until they tell him with which death he will be killed.




          The Gemara continues, explaining the Mekoshesh:




          ת"ק יליף ממקושש ורבי יהודה אומר מקושש הוראת שעה היתה:



          The Tanna Kamma learns this from the Mekoshesh, and R’ Yehudah says, the Mekoshesh was a hora’as sha’ah.




          According to the Tanna Kamma, just as the Mekoshesh was warned that he’d be put to death but not which one, so, too, all warnings for the death penalty. According to R’ Yehudah, that case was uniquely instructed by Hashem.



          Now, they did know that one who violates Shabbos is liable to death; the only question was which one. To quote the Gemara ibid. 78b:




          תניא יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר (שמות לא, יד) מחלליה מות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזו מיתה נהרג שנאמר (במדבר טו, לד) כי לא פורש



          It was taught in a Braisa: Moshe knew that the Mekoshesh was to be put to death, as it says, “One who violates [Shabbos] will be put to death,” but he didn’t know with which death he should be killed, as it says, “It was not explained.”







          share|improve this answer













          This is addressed by Sanhedrin 80b. It’s a dispute to begin with whether the particular form of death needs to be specified in the warning:




          תניא ושאר חייבי מיתות שבתורה אין ממיתין אותן אלא בעדה ועדים והתראה ועד שיודיעוהו שהוא חייב מיתת ב"ד רבי יהודה אומר עד שיודיעוהו באיזה מיתה הוא נהרג



          We taught in a Braisa: For all others that make liable to death from the Torah, we don’t kill them except with a court, witnesses, warning, and until they warn him that he’s liable to death. R’ Yehudah says: until they tell him with which death he will be killed.




          The Gemara continues, explaining the Mekoshesh:




          ת"ק יליף ממקושש ורבי יהודה אומר מקושש הוראת שעה היתה:



          The Tanna Kamma learns this from the Mekoshesh, and R’ Yehudah says, the Mekoshesh was a hora’as sha’ah.




          According to the Tanna Kamma, just as the Mekoshesh was warned that he’d be put to death but not which one, so, too, all warnings for the death penalty. According to R’ Yehudah, that case was uniquely instructed by Hashem.



          Now, they did know that one who violates Shabbos is liable to death; the only question was which one. To quote the Gemara ibid. 78b:




          תניא יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר (שמות לא, יד) מחלליה מות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזו מיתה נהרג שנאמר (במדבר טו, לד) כי לא פורש



          It was taught in a Braisa: Moshe knew that the Mekoshesh was to be put to death, as it says, “One who violates [Shabbos] will be put to death,” but he didn’t know with which death he should be killed, as it says, “It was not explained.”








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 hours ago









          DonielFDonielF

          13.1k12175




          13.1k12175























              2














              Rashi and Rav Hirsch explain that Hashem had already commanded that he was subject to the death penalty, but they did not yet know the precise manner of the punishment.



              Shlach Lecha 15:34




              They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be
              done to him.




              Rashi




              since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he
              should be executed. But they did know that one who
              desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]




              Rav Hirsch explains that




              But here: כי לא פרש מה יעשה לו, that it was a capital crime punishable
              by death was in no doubt, מחלליה מות יומת (Exodus XXXI,14) had already
              been proclaimed, the only doubt was מה יעשה לו, which form of death
              was to be administered. יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר מחלליה
              םות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזה מיתה נהרג (Sanhedrin 78b).
              Nevertheless, the התראה was legally sufficient, for all that is
              required is שהתרו בו סתם that he is told that what he does is a
              capital crime (Ibid 80b). But in the opinion of רב יהודה any התראה is
              incomplete if the actual form of the death to which he is liable is
              not specified to the criminal, then the killing of the מקושש was a
              special case, an הוראת שעה dictated directly by Hashem and cannot be
              used as an example for the general practice.




              Shlach Lecha 15:35




              הוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה מ֥וֹת יוּמַ֖ת הָאִ֑ישׁ רָג֨וֹם אֹת֤וֹ
              בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ כָּל־הָ֣עֵדָ֔ה מִח֖וּץ לַמַּֽחֲנֶֽה







              share|improve this answer




























                2














                Rashi and Rav Hirsch explain that Hashem had already commanded that he was subject to the death penalty, but they did not yet know the precise manner of the punishment.



                Shlach Lecha 15:34




                They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be
                done to him.




                Rashi




                since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he
                should be executed. But they did know that one who
                desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]




                Rav Hirsch explains that




                But here: כי לא פרש מה יעשה לו, that it was a capital crime punishable
                by death was in no doubt, מחלליה מות יומת (Exodus XXXI,14) had already
                been proclaimed, the only doubt was מה יעשה לו, which form of death
                was to be administered. יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר מחלליה
                םות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזה מיתה נהרג (Sanhedrin 78b).
                Nevertheless, the התראה was legally sufficient, for all that is
                required is שהתרו בו סתם that he is told that what he does is a
                capital crime (Ibid 80b). But in the opinion of רב יהודה any התראה is
                incomplete if the actual form of the death to which he is liable is
                not specified to the criminal, then the killing of the מקושש was a
                special case, an הוראת שעה dictated directly by Hashem and cannot be
                used as an example for the general practice.




                Shlach Lecha 15:35




                הוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה מ֥וֹת יוּמַ֖ת הָאִ֑ישׁ רָג֨וֹם אֹת֤וֹ
                בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ כָּל־הָ֣עֵדָ֔ה מִח֖וּץ לַמַּֽחֲנֶֽה







                share|improve this answer


























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  Rashi and Rav Hirsch explain that Hashem had already commanded that he was subject to the death penalty, but they did not yet know the precise manner of the punishment.



                  Shlach Lecha 15:34




                  They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be
                  done to him.




                  Rashi




                  since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he
                  should be executed. But they did know that one who
                  desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]




                  Rav Hirsch explains that




                  But here: כי לא פרש מה יעשה לו, that it was a capital crime punishable
                  by death was in no doubt, מחלליה מות יומת (Exodus XXXI,14) had already
                  been proclaimed, the only doubt was מה יעשה לו, which form of death
                  was to be administered. יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר מחלליה
                  םות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזה מיתה נהרג (Sanhedrin 78b).
                  Nevertheless, the התראה was legally sufficient, for all that is
                  required is שהתרו בו סתם that he is told that what he does is a
                  capital crime (Ibid 80b). But in the opinion of רב יהודה any התראה is
                  incomplete if the actual form of the death to which he is liable is
                  not specified to the criminal, then the killing of the מקושש was a
                  special case, an הוראת שעה dictated directly by Hashem and cannot be
                  used as an example for the general practice.




                  Shlach Lecha 15:35




                  הוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה מ֥וֹת יוּמַ֖ת הָאִ֑ישׁ רָג֨וֹם אֹת֤וֹ
                  בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ כָּל־הָ֣עֵדָ֔ה מִח֖וּץ לַמַּֽחֲנֶֽה







                  share|improve this answer













                  Rashi and Rav Hirsch explain that Hashem had already commanded that he was subject to the death penalty, but they did not yet know the precise manner of the punishment.



                  Shlach Lecha 15:34




                  They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be
                  done to him.




                  Rashi




                  since it was not specified what was to be done to him: With which method he
                  should be executed. But they did know that one who
                  desecrates the Sabbath is put to death. — [Sifrei Shelach 57]




                  Rav Hirsch explains that




                  But here: כי לא פרש מה יעשה לו, that it was a capital crime punishable
                  by death was in no doubt, מחלליה מות יומת (Exodus XXXI,14) had already
                  been proclaimed, the only doubt was מה יעשה לו, which form of death
                  was to be administered. יודע היה משה רבינו שהמקושש במיתה שנאמר מחלליה
                  םות יומת אלא לא היה יודע באיזה מיתה נהרג (Sanhedrin 78b).
                  Nevertheless, the התראה was legally sufficient, for all that is
                  required is שהתרו בו סתם that he is told that what he does is a
                  capital crime (Ibid 80b). But in the opinion of רב יהודה any התראה is
                  incomplete if the actual form of the death to which he is liable is
                  not specified to the criminal, then the killing of the מקושש was a
                  special case, an הוראת שעה dictated directly by Hashem and cannot be
                  used as an example for the general practice.




                  Shlach Lecha 15:35




                  הוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה מ֥וֹת יוּמַ֖ת הָאִ֑ישׁ רָג֨וֹם אֹת֤וֹ
                  בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ כָּל־הָ֣עֵדָ֔ה מִח֖וּץ לַמַּֽחֲנֶֽה








                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 2 hours ago









                  sabbahillelsabbahillel

                  34k23668




                  34k23668















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