Why is a border wall such a polarising issue in American politics?












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I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling. It doesn't seem inherently unreasonable that the US has one as well, especially given the border with Mexico is well known for illegal crossing and drug smuggling.



Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for, and what do the Democrats have to gain politically from the continued illegal activity on the border? Surely Democrats are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well(?).



They could make a deal and get something that would make a real material difference to the electorate, and I don't see why they're going to the mat for this.










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  • 39





    Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

    – yannis
    Jan 11 at 21:37






  • 6





    Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

    – Philipp
    Jan 13 at 0:35






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    Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

    – paul23
    2 days ago






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    @yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

    – JimmyJames
    2 days ago






  • 18





    While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

    – trlkly
    2 days ago


















89















I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling. It doesn't seem inherently unreasonable that the US has one as well, especially given the border with Mexico is well known for illegal crossing and drug smuggling.



Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for, and what do the Democrats have to gain politically from the continued illegal activity on the border? Surely Democrats are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well(?).



They could make a deal and get something that would make a real material difference to the electorate, and I don't see why they're going to the mat for this.










share|improve this question




















  • 39





    Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

    – yannis
    Jan 11 at 21:37






  • 6





    Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

    – Philipp
    Jan 13 at 0:35






  • 28





    Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

    – paul23
    2 days ago






  • 7





    @yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

    – JimmyJames
    2 days ago






  • 18





    While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

    – trlkly
    2 days ago
















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I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling. It doesn't seem inherently unreasonable that the US has one as well, especially given the border with Mexico is well known for illegal crossing and drug smuggling.



Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for, and what do the Democrats have to gain politically from the continued illegal activity on the border? Surely Democrats are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well(?).



They could make a deal and get something that would make a real material difference to the electorate, and I don't see why they're going to the mat for this.










share|improve this question
















I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling. It doesn't seem inherently unreasonable that the US has one as well, especially given the border with Mexico is well known for illegal crossing and drug smuggling.



Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for, and what do the Democrats have to gain politically from the continued illegal activity on the border? Surely Democrats are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well(?).



They could make a deal and get something that would make a real material difference to the electorate, and I don't see why they're going to the mat for this.







united-states trump-wall






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edited yesterday









Peter Mortensen

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asked Jan 11 at 21:18









user1450877user1450877

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  • 39





    Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

    – yannis
    Jan 11 at 21:37






  • 6





    Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

    – Philipp
    Jan 13 at 0:35






  • 28





    Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

    – paul23
    2 days ago






  • 7





    @yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

    – JimmyJames
    2 days ago






  • 18





    While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

    – trlkly
    2 days ago
















  • 39





    Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

    – yannis
    Jan 11 at 21:37






  • 6





    Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

    – Philipp
    Jan 13 at 0:35






  • 28





    Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

    – paul23
    2 days ago






  • 7





    @yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

    – JimmyJames
    2 days ago






  • 18





    While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

    – trlkly
    2 days ago










39




39





Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

– yannis
Jan 11 at 21:37





Related: What are the primary objections Democrats have to a border wall?, Why did many voters support a border wall instead of other border control methods?, Long term, does a Trump's wall cost more than it saves per year?

– yannis
Jan 11 at 21:37




6




6





Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

– Philipp
Jan 13 at 0:35





Comments deleted. Comments should be used to provide constructive criticism to the question or to add relevant meta-information. They are not for answering the question or for debating the subject matter of the question.

– Philipp
Jan 13 at 0:35




28




28





Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

– paul23
2 days ago





Many countries have a hard border? I think you need to provide some examples, I know only of china's wall. - And the romanian border. However they're all criticesed, with the US in the past being the strongest opponent of a wall splitting countries (berlin wall, famous "ich bin ein berliner" speech was against the idea of building walls).

– paul23
2 days ago




7




7





@yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

– JimmyJames
2 days ago





@yannis That list contains less than 40 barriers for a grand total of 20,000 km (about 12,000 miles). There are a little less than 200 counties in the world. Based on this there are something like nearly 450 unique land borders and roughly 250,000 km of land borders. Maybe not completely uncommon, but definitely a small proportion. Most of those barriers are small. Like a few hours of biking length.

– JimmyJames
2 days ago




18




18





While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

– trlkly
2 days ago







While a question about why the Wall is such a polarizing issue in the US is entirely valid, this Question contains a lot of pointed rhetoric, rather than asking the question in a neutral manner. It contains talking points about the walls being normal (they are in fact uncommon) and stating that a wall is a normal function of the government (which is not established). The question currently conveys a sense of trying to push towards a particular answer, that the US is wrong to make the Wall a contentious issue. Questions should be asked as neutrally as possible.

– trlkly
2 days ago












10 Answers
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oldest

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tl;dr: The wall is only an idea with lots of blanks. People on different sides of the divide fill in the blanks differently, so they end up with different conclusions.





There is still nothing more to The Wall than the idea. A concrete project to build the wall, a plan for how it would look, an estimate what it would cost, or even a clear objective that it would achieve, is not part of the discussion. Such a plan to have a discussion about simply doesn't exist.



And it gets worse. Nobody has yet clearly and fully defined the problem The Wall is supposed to solve. Right now, any attempt to dive into the facts of The Wall discussion will fail before it starts, because none of the involved politicians can enumerate the actual real life problems The Wall is supposed to solve, let alone explain how The Wall does so better than alternative options.



So how come people on different sides fill in the blanks differently? The Wall is a simple symbol, which convinces some voters because it's easy to make strong assertions, which carry some false implied statements. Let's give an example: OP's words "Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling" imply




  1. That continuous walls between countries are perfectly normal

  2. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce smuggling

  3. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce illegal immigration


OP's words are true, but the 3 implied statements are not.* While there are untrue or unproven implicit statements in circulation on both sides, I chose the claims implied by OP because of simplicity, and because they are particularly popular falsehoods.



The divide over the idea of the wall is magnified due to the unfortunate fact that in the US there is a very peculiar situation where one of the major news networks specializes in the intentional spread of such false and misleading information through implied statements.



All in all, a wall is a simple solution that doesn't address a complex problem, except in the minds of some of the voters. And both sides - one much more so than the other - play around the issue by avoiding any actually relevant hard facts and data, to avoid being called out by the other side.





*Disclaimer: The below shows, on request, the 3 implied falsehoods are such. It is not strictly relevant to, or part of, this answer, but it will satisfy some people's curiosity. Some people in comments assumed that the below is the answer. It isn't.



1) Only a tiny fraction of worldwide borders have walls, while the overwhelming majority or borders do not have man made barriers. You'll also notice that among the small fraction of borders that sport man made barriers, a majority seems to be borders between hostile nations such as India-Pakistan, Ukraine-Russia, and Korea-Korea.



2) Drugs already cross the US-Mexican border in places where man-made barriers exist, over, under and through the barriers. Smugglers use plenty of routes and methods that will be entirely unaffected by any new wall (catapults, smuggling through ports of entry, planes/drones, tunnels).



3) Visa overstays are completely unaffected by a physical barrier of any kind. Immigrants who want to surrender themselves to request asylum don't even need to get to the other side of the wall, they just need to find a border patrol on US soil. The remaining immigrants already need tools/vehicles and often hire experienced guides to cross the border - requiring guides to spend money on a set of very cheap and lightweight tools (ladders, ropes, blankets) is unlikely to deter them.





In addition to the above, the symbolism of the Wall plays strongly into a pre-existing political divide, as outlined in Michael Kay's answer.






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  • 41





    "Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

    – Wes Sayeed
    Jan 12 at 0:28








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    @WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

    – Joe W
    Jan 12 at 0:46






  • 9





    When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

    – Graipher
    Jan 12 at 7:54






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    @Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 19:59






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    @jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

    – JJJ
    Jan 12 at 20:10



















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From your comment under the question:




You don't shut down the government over a disagreement about the cost benefit analysis of something that costs 5 billion dollars. There is obviously some deeply political/philosophical objection to the wall.




I think your comment is to the point. There is a philosophical objection. Mainly, the current administration has planned to put millions off of health care yet they plan to spend billions (5.7B$ now, but how long until more is needed?) on a wall.



Now look at that from the Democrats perspective. They can let it happen and be seen as enabling Trump. On the other hand, as they do now, they can take a stand. Obviously, taking a stand is not without disadvantages: the shutdown has many disadvantages for the public, especially public servants.



Either Trump gives in and the Democrats have a moral victory or the shutdown carries on and the pressure (on everyone) grows. Eventually, someone will give in (or new elections happen) and the electorate will choose a side.






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  • 19





    I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

    – Mazura
    Jan 12 at 21:26






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    re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

    – Magisch
    Jan 14 at 10:17











  • That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

    – Mazura
    yesterday



















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It's a polarising issue because it symbolises hostility towards foreigners, which is intrinsically an emotive subject.



If you actually want to reduce illegal immigration in the most cost-effective way possible, then other methods (e.g. more careful vetting at ports and airports) probably work better; but the wall sends a visible message "not wanted here".



It thus draws out a division between people who think foreigners should be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible, and those who regard them as an intrinsic threat to the American nation.



Europe has also been building physical barriers against would-be migrants (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-border-wall-berlin-migration-human-rights-immigration-borders-a8624706.html). This hasn't attracted the same level of controversy, mainly because the democratic process in Europe works rather differently.






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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    19 hours ago



















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The problem with this wall proposal is that we already have a wall. It was built in the 1990s under President Clinton, and expanded under every President since. And the existing wall looks every bit like the Berlin/East Germany wall in sections, complete with double fencing and dog runs. Had then-candidate Trump proposed expanding this wall, it probably would have been uncontroversial. It also would have been much cheaper, but given his personality and his previous remark about "rapists. And a few good people" admitting that we already have a wall wouldn't have been very successful as a campaign promise.



As an aside, Clinton's wall actually backfired. Before the wall was built, Mexican workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season, and then return home.



The wall made the trip much more expensive and difficult. The hope was that this would deter Mexicans (and people from points further south) from crossing into the US. Instead, it deterred them from leaving after harvest season. What used to be undocument non-immigrant workers became year-round undocumented immigrants, who then started bringing wives and children.



That fact is not very well known, though, so it's not likely a factor in why Trump's wall proposal is so polarizing.






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  • 3





    Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

    – Peter
    Jan 14 at 11:42











  • The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

    – Kevin Keane
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday






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    @jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

    – Kevin Keane
    17 hours ago



















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Here's a sampling of the arguments I've heard from people opposed to the wall. Often from people who live near the border:




  1. Walls and fences are of little value if they are not guarded. Many areas of the border have no telecommunications and are difficult to reach. Example


  2. Tunnels can go under walls.

  3. Most illegal immigrants and drugs come into the country through other means.

  4. In some areas of the border, people have ranches and other property. You first have to take their land through eminent domain and then block their access to the river. Example

  5. When heavy rains hit an area, they run to the nearest river. If you got a wall there, where's the water going? A fence might work better in such areas but debris will collect on it and cause flooding unless it is cleared. Example

  6. Wild life does not respect borders. A wall and even a fence will create ecological consequences that are hard to predict. Example

  7. Native tribes occupy lands that span the border (this is true in the north too) and a wall would divide them. Example


Much of the opposition to the wall is due to the belief that it will be costly and ineffective while creating problems. They disagree that it will be a "real material difference to the electorate", at least in the implied positive way you put it. In a nutshell they don't agree with wasting money on something they see at best as being mostly pointless and at worst highly problematic.






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  • 2





    While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

    – Schwern
    yesterday








  • 1





    @Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

    – JimmyJames
    yesterday





















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The short answer is that some private citizens and elected officials think a border wall will substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting as a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security and other private citizens and elected officials think that a border wall will not substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is not a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security.



The issue might presently appear to some to be particularly polarizing because it is a case of first impression and is a live controversy directly involving or affecting several nations and millions of people that has not been settled.






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  • 21





    I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

    – user1450877
    Jan 12 at 1:10






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    We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

    – MolonLabe
    Jan 12 at 4:45






  • 5





    You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 20:03






  • 2





    @jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

    – Ben Voigt
    Jan 13 at 18:21






  • 4





    @MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

    – CramerTV
    2 days ago



















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I'm not trying to go full PoMo here, but meaning is often socially constructed.



Anything can be politically polarizing if a critical mass of people perceive it to be that way. We could be talking about a waist-high barrier in someone's back yard if such a thing came to national attention and had some sort of symbolic weight.



Think about some issues that are political issues (at least in the US) that shouldn't be: climate change, voter fraud, etc. But as I've said elsewhere on this site, these things aren't just subjects for discussion but membership cards, marking people as one of us/those people we hate.



We cannot have real conversations anymore about these topics. They have been hijacked to denote tribal affiliation. Attempting to make any sort of argument on the object-level question will end in disaster. Indeed, based on the comments and downvotes, merely citing an example pointing this out has been a disaster.



The case of climate change is particularly instructive: I've repeatedly had the following conversation and it goes the same way every time:



Other Person: "I don't see why anyone would doubt the scientific consensus on climate change"



Me: "Are you a climate scientist? Hang out with any? Read any peer-reviewed literature on the topic over the last 20 years? Even just the abstract of a single paper from the last 20 years? How do you know what the scientific consensus is?"



Other Person: "You're obviously one of those science-denying Fox-watching troglodytes."



Every. Single. Time.



The problem is that I'm addressing the statement at the object level. What the other person is actually saying is "I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican-haters club" and when I say what I say they translate it to "I'm a Republican, come at me bro".



The problem is this is an especially crappy thing to treat this way: the future of the planet may well depend on having the correct policies around this issue. But we can't have a frank conversation about it anymore.



Illegal immigration is in the same boat (albeit not as critical to the fate of the planet), and the wall is just the rallying point for opposing forces. It could have been anything. I'd have preferred they picked something that didn't cost $5 billion, but that's another topic.






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  • 7





    This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

    – JJJ
    Jan 13 at 1:10






  • 1





    @JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

    – Jared Smith
    Jan 13 at 20:08













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    14 hours ago



















5














The wall itself (whether effective or otherwise) is a symbol for the entire debate concerning how open America should be to immigration.



enter image description here



Large numbers of people also incorrectly believe most immigrants are here illegally, making their opinions on illegal immigration a proxy for their opinions on immigration generally
enter image description here



One of the reasons for this debate is that it is very difficult for people to enter the United States legally.





  • If you are the child (over 21 years of age) of a US citizen, you are
    in the first preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can
    be six years.

  • If you are the child or spouse of a green card holder,
    you are in the second preference. The wait for a US visa in this
    category can be five to ten years.

  • If you are the married child of a US citizen, you are in third preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can be eight years.

  • If you are the sibling of a US citizen, you are in fourth preference. Several things can affect waiting times of family-sponsored green card applications.




People who think we should be more open to immigration see this and oppose steps to enforce our immigration laws because they see our immigration system's rejection of people who want to contribute to our country's success as both immoral and counterproductive, as well as a general failure for our government to enact laws to open up our immigration system more generally. They also see it as against our basic cultural values and against the source of some of our most impactful successes. This motivates a lot of the "sanctuary" legislation and more general opposition to the wall.



On the other side there are a few camps, those hostile to foreigners because they are essentially racist (it is perhaps educational to wonder why there is no clamoring to build a wall between the USA and Canada and secure our northern border). Then there are those hostile to foreigners because they are foreign (see Michael Kay's answer, additionally they may see competent foreign competition as a threat to their own employment or salary) and finally those that are hostile to immigrants who enter illegally because they see them as inherently law breakers (they entered "illegally", after all) and therefore automatically criminals and likely to commit more crimes (despite the general lower incidence of crime among immigrants when compared to the population at large). (Edit: I believe the arguments helpfully laid out by TheLeopard in the comments below are representative of those given by this last group) enter image description here






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

    – jpmc26
    yesterday











  • Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

    – TheLeopard
    22 hours ago













  • @TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

    – TemporalWolf
    16 hours ago











  • I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago











  • Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago



















2















They could make a deal




The problem is Trump himself. He reneges on deals, sometimes even before the "other side" has left the room. Before you can possibly make any sort of deal, both sides need to have some credibility that the other would uphold their side of a bargain. To date, Trump, as President, has not shown that he is willing to back his words and tweets with any reliability.




surely ... are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well?




I don't agree that the border is suddenly a crisis. The majority of illegal immigrants arrive with legal visas and overstay their visa. These will not be affected by any sort of magic wall. The insistence on a wall along the border with Mexico and complete silence about a wall along the border with Canada strikes me as mendacious racism.




The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany.



GDR authorities officially referred to the Berlin Wall as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart




When East Germany built the Berlin Wall, they claimed that it was to protect DDR from "fascists" sneaking over the border sabotaging East Germany. In fact, it was built to keep East Germans from escaping. That so much effort has been devoted to the current "emergency", along to so many lies, tells me that the real reason for the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, but Americans in. I see no reason to assist Trump in building a Tortilla Curtain.






share|improve this answer
























  • Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

    – Shadur
    8 hours ago



















-2














Because the government has done nothing but give amnesty to line cutters. As well as slap on the wrists to businesses who illegally hire illegal immigrants. At least Trump is doing something (anything), and shows that the democrats will do nothing. The natural born and legal citizens are tired of being giving 2nd class treatment by elites. With most seeing democrats, and the voting history of illegal immigrants, having a large stake and bias in the outcome.






share|improve this answer
























  • Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

    – Craig Hicks
    7 hours ago












protected by Philipp Jan 13 at 0:36



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171














tl;dr: The wall is only an idea with lots of blanks. People on different sides of the divide fill in the blanks differently, so they end up with different conclusions.





There is still nothing more to The Wall than the idea. A concrete project to build the wall, a plan for how it would look, an estimate what it would cost, or even a clear objective that it would achieve, is not part of the discussion. Such a plan to have a discussion about simply doesn't exist.



And it gets worse. Nobody has yet clearly and fully defined the problem The Wall is supposed to solve. Right now, any attempt to dive into the facts of The Wall discussion will fail before it starts, because none of the involved politicians can enumerate the actual real life problems The Wall is supposed to solve, let alone explain how The Wall does so better than alternative options.



So how come people on different sides fill in the blanks differently? The Wall is a simple symbol, which convinces some voters because it's easy to make strong assertions, which carry some false implied statements. Let's give an example: OP's words "Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling" imply




  1. That continuous walls between countries are perfectly normal

  2. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce smuggling

  3. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce illegal immigration


OP's words are true, but the 3 implied statements are not.* While there are untrue or unproven implicit statements in circulation on both sides, I chose the claims implied by OP because of simplicity, and because they are particularly popular falsehoods.



The divide over the idea of the wall is magnified due to the unfortunate fact that in the US there is a very peculiar situation where one of the major news networks specializes in the intentional spread of such false and misleading information through implied statements.



All in all, a wall is a simple solution that doesn't address a complex problem, except in the minds of some of the voters. And both sides - one much more so than the other - play around the issue by avoiding any actually relevant hard facts and data, to avoid being called out by the other side.





*Disclaimer: The below shows, on request, the 3 implied falsehoods are such. It is not strictly relevant to, or part of, this answer, but it will satisfy some people's curiosity. Some people in comments assumed that the below is the answer. It isn't.



1) Only a tiny fraction of worldwide borders have walls, while the overwhelming majority or borders do not have man made barriers. You'll also notice that among the small fraction of borders that sport man made barriers, a majority seems to be borders between hostile nations such as India-Pakistan, Ukraine-Russia, and Korea-Korea.



2) Drugs already cross the US-Mexican border in places where man-made barriers exist, over, under and through the barriers. Smugglers use plenty of routes and methods that will be entirely unaffected by any new wall (catapults, smuggling through ports of entry, planes/drones, tunnels).



3) Visa overstays are completely unaffected by a physical barrier of any kind. Immigrants who want to surrender themselves to request asylum don't even need to get to the other side of the wall, they just need to find a border patrol on US soil. The remaining immigrants already need tools/vehicles and often hire experienced guides to cross the border - requiring guides to spend money on a set of very cheap and lightweight tools (ladders, ropes, blankets) is unlikely to deter them.





In addition to the above, the symbolism of the Wall plays strongly into a pre-existing political divide, as outlined in Michael Kay's answer.






share|improve this answer





















  • 41





    "Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

    – Wes Sayeed
    Jan 12 at 0:28








  • 28





    @WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

    – Joe W
    Jan 12 at 0:46






  • 9





    When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

    – Graipher
    Jan 12 at 7:54






  • 22





    @Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 19:59






  • 6





    @jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

    – JJJ
    Jan 12 at 20:10
















171














tl;dr: The wall is only an idea with lots of blanks. People on different sides of the divide fill in the blanks differently, so they end up with different conclusions.





There is still nothing more to The Wall than the idea. A concrete project to build the wall, a plan for how it would look, an estimate what it would cost, or even a clear objective that it would achieve, is not part of the discussion. Such a plan to have a discussion about simply doesn't exist.



And it gets worse. Nobody has yet clearly and fully defined the problem The Wall is supposed to solve. Right now, any attempt to dive into the facts of The Wall discussion will fail before it starts, because none of the involved politicians can enumerate the actual real life problems The Wall is supposed to solve, let alone explain how The Wall does so better than alternative options.



So how come people on different sides fill in the blanks differently? The Wall is a simple symbol, which convinces some voters because it's easy to make strong assertions, which carry some false implied statements. Let's give an example: OP's words "Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling" imply




  1. That continuous walls between countries are perfectly normal

  2. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce smuggling

  3. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce illegal immigration


OP's words are true, but the 3 implied statements are not.* While there are untrue or unproven implicit statements in circulation on both sides, I chose the claims implied by OP because of simplicity, and because they are particularly popular falsehoods.



The divide over the idea of the wall is magnified due to the unfortunate fact that in the US there is a very peculiar situation where one of the major news networks specializes in the intentional spread of such false and misleading information through implied statements.



All in all, a wall is a simple solution that doesn't address a complex problem, except in the minds of some of the voters. And both sides - one much more so than the other - play around the issue by avoiding any actually relevant hard facts and data, to avoid being called out by the other side.





*Disclaimer: The below shows, on request, the 3 implied falsehoods are such. It is not strictly relevant to, or part of, this answer, but it will satisfy some people's curiosity. Some people in comments assumed that the below is the answer. It isn't.



1) Only a tiny fraction of worldwide borders have walls, while the overwhelming majority or borders do not have man made barriers. You'll also notice that among the small fraction of borders that sport man made barriers, a majority seems to be borders between hostile nations such as India-Pakistan, Ukraine-Russia, and Korea-Korea.



2) Drugs already cross the US-Mexican border in places where man-made barriers exist, over, under and through the barriers. Smugglers use plenty of routes and methods that will be entirely unaffected by any new wall (catapults, smuggling through ports of entry, planes/drones, tunnels).



3) Visa overstays are completely unaffected by a physical barrier of any kind. Immigrants who want to surrender themselves to request asylum don't even need to get to the other side of the wall, they just need to find a border patrol on US soil. The remaining immigrants already need tools/vehicles and often hire experienced guides to cross the border - requiring guides to spend money on a set of very cheap and lightweight tools (ladders, ropes, blankets) is unlikely to deter them.





In addition to the above, the symbolism of the Wall plays strongly into a pre-existing political divide, as outlined in Michael Kay's answer.






share|improve this answer





















  • 41





    "Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

    – Wes Sayeed
    Jan 12 at 0:28








  • 28





    @WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

    – Joe W
    Jan 12 at 0:46






  • 9





    When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

    – Graipher
    Jan 12 at 7:54






  • 22





    @Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 19:59






  • 6





    @jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

    – JJJ
    Jan 12 at 20:10














171












171








171







tl;dr: The wall is only an idea with lots of blanks. People on different sides of the divide fill in the blanks differently, so they end up with different conclusions.





There is still nothing more to The Wall than the idea. A concrete project to build the wall, a plan for how it would look, an estimate what it would cost, or even a clear objective that it would achieve, is not part of the discussion. Such a plan to have a discussion about simply doesn't exist.



And it gets worse. Nobody has yet clearly and fully defined the problem The Wall is supposed to solve. Right now, any attempt to dive into the facts of The Wall discussion will fail before it starts, because none of the involved politicians can enumerate the actual real life problems The Wall is supposed to solve, let alone explain how The Wall does so better than alternative options.



So how come people on different sides fill in the blanks differently? The Wall is a simple symbol, which convinces some voters because it's easy to make strong assertions, which carry some false implied statements. Let's give an example: OP's words "Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling" imply




  1. That continuous walls between countries are perfectly normal

  2. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce smuggling

  3. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce illegal immigration


OP's words are true, but the 3 implied statements are not.* While there are untrue or unproven implicit statements in circulation on both sides, I chose the claims implied by OP because of simplicity, and because they are particularly popular falsehoods.



The divide over the idea of the wall is magnified due to the unfortunate fact that in the US there is a very peculiar situation where one of the major news networks specializes in the intentional spread of such false and misleading information through implied statements.



All in all, a wall is a simple solution that doesn't address a complex problem, except in the minds of some of the voters. And both sides - one much more so than the other - play around the issue by avoiding any actually relevant hard facts and data, to avoid being called out by the other side.





*Disclaimer: The below shows, on request, the 3 implied falsehoods are such. It is not strictly relevant to, or part of, this answer, but it will satisfy some people's curiosity. Some people in comments assumed that the below is the answer. It isn't.



1) Only a tiny fraction of worldwide borders have walls, while the overwhelming majority or borders do not have man made barriers. You'll also notice that among the small fraction of borders that sport man made barriers, a majority seems to be borders between hostile nations such as India-Pakistan, Ukraine-Russia, and Korea-Korea.



2) Drugs already cross the US-Mexican border in places where man-made barriers exist, over, under and through the barriers. Smugglers use plenty of routes and methods that will be entirely unaffected by any new wall (catapults, smuggling through ports of entry, planes/drones, tunnels).



3) Visa overstays are completely unaffected by a physical barrier of any kind. Immigrants who want to surrender themselves to request asylum don't even need to get to the other side of the wall, they just need to find a border patrol on US soil. The remaining immigrants already need tools/vehicles and often hire experienced guides to cross the border - requiring guides to spend money on a set of very cheap and lightweight tools (ladders, ropes, blankets) is unlikely to deter them.





In addition to the above, the symbolism of the Wall plays strongly into a pre-existing political divide, as outlined in Michael Kay's answer.






share|improve this answer















tl;dr: The wall is only an idea with lots of blanks. People on different sides of the divide fill in the blanks differently, so they end up with different conclusions.





There is still nothing more to The Wall than the idea. A concrete project to build the wall, a plan for how it would look, an estimate what it would cost, or even a clear objective that it would achieve, is not part of the discussion. Such a plan to have a discussion about simply doesn't exist.



And it gets worse. Nobody has yet clearly and fully defined the problem The Wall is supposed to solve. Right now, any attempt to dive into the facts of The Wall discussion will fail before it starts, because none of the involved politicians can enumerate the actual real life problems The Wall is supposed to solve, let alone explain how The Wall does so better than alternative options.



So how come people on different sides fill in the blanks differently? The Wall is a simple symbol, which convinces some voters because it's easy to make strong assertions, which carry some false implied statements. Let's give an example: OP's words "Many countries around the world have a hard border with a physical barrier in place to stop illegal crossing/smuggling" imply




  1. That continuous walls between countries are perfectly normal

  2. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce smuggling

  3. That Trump's wall can stop or significantly reduce illegal immigration


OP's words are true, but the 3 implied statements are not.* While there are untrue or unproven implicit statements in circulation on both sides, I chose the claims implied by OP because of simplicity, and because they are particularly popular falsehoods.



The divide over the idea of the wall is magnified due to the unfortunate fact that in the US there is a very peculiar situation where one of the major news networks specializes in the intentional spread of such false and misleading information through implied statements.



All in all, a wall is a simple solution that doesn't address a complex problem, except in the minds of some of the voters. And both sides - one much more so than the other - play around the issue by avoiding any actually relevant hard facts and data, to avoid being called out by the other side.





*Disclaimer: The below shows, on request, the 3 implied falsehoods are such. It is not strictly relevant to, or part of, this answer, but it will satisfy some people's curiosity. Some people in comments assumed that the below is the answer. It isn't.



1) Only a tiny fraction of worldwide borders have walls, while the overwhelming majority or borders do not have man made barriers. You'll also notice that among the small fraction of borders that sport man made barriers, a majority seems to be borders between hostile nations such as India-Pakistan, Ukraine-Russia, and Korea-Korea.



2) Drugs already cross the US-Mexican border in places where man-made barriers exist, over, under and through the barriers. Smugglers use plenty of routes and methods that will be entirely unaffected by any new wall (catapults, smuggling through ports of entry, planes/drones, tunnels).



3) Visa overstays are completely unaffected by a physical barrier of any kind. Immigrants who want to surrender themselves to request asylum don't even need to get to the other side of the wall, they just need to find a border patrol on US soil. The remaining immigrants already need tools/vehicles and often hire experienced guides to cross the border - requiring guides to spend money on a set of very cheap and lightweight tools (ladders, ropes, blankets) is unlikely to deter them.





In addition to the above, the symbolism of the Wall plays strongly into a pre-existing political divide, as outlined in Michael Kay's answer.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 19 hours ago

























answered Jan 11 at 23:54









PeterPeter

3,0691715




3,0691715








  • 41





    "Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

    – Wes Sayeed
    Jan 12 at 0:28








  • 28





    @WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

    – Joe W
    Jan 12 at 0:46






  • 9





    When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

    – Graipher
    Jan 12 at 7:54






  • 22





    @Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 19:59






  • 6





    @jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

    – JJJ
    Jan 12 at 20:10














  • 41





    "Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

    – Wes Sayeed
    Jan 12 at 0:28








  • 28





    @WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

    – Joe W
    Jan 12 at 0:46






  • 9





    When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

    – Graipher
    Jan 12 at 7:54






  • 22





    @Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 19:59






  • 6





    @jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

    – JJJ
    Jan 12 at 20:10








41




41





"Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

– Wes Sayeed
Jan 12 at 0:28







"Until recently a wall was seen to be only a talking point, rather than a serious solution to address the underlying problem"; This is not correct. Discussions of a physical barrier along the US/Mexico border go all the way back to at least the 1980s. Long sections of fencing were constructed in the 1990s, and Congress even passed the Secure Fence Act in 2006. The only thing that's changed is that the word "wall" is now being used to describe it.

– Wes Sayeed
Jan 12 at 0:28






28




28





@WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

– Joe W
Jan 12 at 0:46





@WesSayeed along sections of the border, not along the entire border which parts of it are owned by parities that have treaties with the government saying that they have control of it instead of the government.

– Joe W
Jan 12 at 0:46




9




9





When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

– Graipher
Jan 12 at 7:54





When you say "OPs words are true, yet they carry with them 3 implied statements, of which not a single one is true." you should add some sources proving that they are not true.

– Graipher
Jan 12 at 7:54




22




22





@Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

– jamesqf
Jan 12 at 19:59





@Peter: To the methods of drug smuggling which render the Wall irrelevant you could add airplanes, cargo ships, purpose-build submarines en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine and for all I know, drones. Of course most of those could be used for humans, too. And of course there's the great extent to which US drug prohibition has, by causing the growth of cartels &c, encouraged many Latin Americans to come to the US as an escape.

– jamesqf
Jan 12 at 19:59




6




6





@jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

– JJJ
Jan 12 at 20:10





@jamesqf those are not profitable for most human trafficking. They work for drugs because that can be sold very lucratively in the US. Human trafficking works on the principle than many people pay a relatively small amount of money. A rich person may be willing to pay something in the tens of thousands$. That works out to less than a grand per kilogram of 'goods'. A kilogram of cocaine goes for 50K wholesale. And cocaine requires much less attention (drinking, feeding, etc.)

– JJJ
Jan 12 at 20:10











58














From your comment under the question:




You don't shut down the government over a disagreement about the cost benefit analysis of something that costs 5 billion dollars. There is obviously some deeply political/philosophical objection to the wall.




I think your comment is to the point. There is a philosophical objection. Mainly, the current administration has planned to put millions off of health care yet they plan to spend billions (5.7B$ now, but how long until more is needed?) on a wall.



Now look at that from the Democrats perspective. They can let it happen and be seen as enabling Trump. On the other hand, as they do now, they can take a stand. Obviously, taking a stand is not without disadvantages: the shutdown has many disadvantages for the public, especially public servants.



Either Trump gives in and the Democrats have a moral victory or the shutdown carries on and the pressure (on everyone) grows. Eventually, someone will give in (or new elections happen) and the electorate will choose a side.






share|improve this answer





















  • 19





    I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

    – Mazura
    Jan 12 at 21:26






  • 23





    re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

    – Magisch
    Jan 14 at 10:17











  • That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

    – Mazura
    yesterday
















58














From your comment under the question:




You don't shut down the government over a disagreement about the cost benefit analysis of something that costs 5 billion dollars. There is obviously some deeply political/philosophical objection to the wall.




I think your comment is to the point. There is a philosophical objection. Mainly, the current administration has planned to put millions off of health care yet they plan to spend billions (5.7B$ now, but how long until more is needed?) on a wall.



Now look at that from the Democrats perspective. They can let it happen and be seen as enabling Trump. On the other hand, as they do now, they can take a stand. Obviously, taking a stand is not without disadvantages: the shutdown has many disadvantages for the public, especially public servants.



Either Trump gives in and the Democrats have a moral victory or the shutdown carries on and the pressure (on everyone) grows. Eventually, someone will give in (or new elections happen) and the electorate will choose a side.






share|improve this answer





















  • 19





    I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

    – Mazura
    Jan 12 at 21:26






  • 23





    re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

    – Magisch
    Jan 14 at 10:17











  • That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

    – Mazura
    yesterday














58












58








58







From your comment under the question:




You don't shut down the government over a disagreement about the cost benefit analysis of something that costs 5 billion dollars. There is obviously some deeply political/philosophical objection to the wall.




I think your comment is to the point. There is a philosophical objection. Mainly, the current administration has planned to put millions off of health care yet they plan to spend billions (5.7B$ now, but how long until more is needed?) on a wall.



Now look at that from the Democrats perspective. They can let it happen and be seen as enabling Trump. On the other hand, as they do now, they can take a stand. Obviously, taking a stand is not without disadvantages: the shutdown has many disadvantages for the public, especially public servants.



Either Trump gives in and the Democrats have a moral victory or the shutdown carries on and the pressure (on everyone) grows. Eventually, someone will give in (or new elections happen) and the electorate will choose a side.






share|improve this answer















From your comment under the question:




You don't shut down the government over a disagreement about the cost benefit analysis of something that costs 5 billion dollars. There is obviously some deeply political/philosophical objection to the wall.




I think your comment is to the point. There is a philosophical objection. Mainly, the current administration has planned to put millions off of health care yet they plan to spend billions (5.7B$ now, but how long until more is needed?) on a wall.



Now look at that from the Democrats perspective. They can let it happen and be seen as enabling Trump. On the other hand, as they do now, they can take a stand. Obviously, taking a stand is not without disadvantages: the shutdown has many disadvantages for the public, especially public servants.



Either Trump gives in and the Democrats have a moral victory or the shutdown carries on and the pressure (on everyone) grows. Eventually, someone will give in (or new elections happen) and the electorate will choose a side.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jan 12 at 2:36

























answered Jan 12 at 1:18









JJJJJJ

3,84521738




3,84521738








  • 19





    I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

    – Mazura
    Jan 12 at 21:26






  • 23





    re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

    – Magisch
    Jan 14 at 10:17











  • That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

    – Mazura
    yesterday














  • 19





    I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

    – Mazura
    Jan 12 at 21:26






  • 23





    re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

    – Magisch
    Jan 14 at 10:17











  • That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

    – Mazura
    yesterday








19




19





I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

– Mazura
Jan 12 at 21:26





I'm just looking for the answer that says that comment, +1. "seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue" because the 'leader of the free world' made it one. Why? Don't ask us why one guy did something. Especially that guy.

– Mazura
Jan 12 at 21:26




23




23





re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

– Magisch
Jan 14 at 10:17





re the 5 billion part. Estimates for a full complete wall go up to 200 billion not to mention the maintenance which can that again every 10 years.

– Magisch
Jan 14 at 10:17













That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

– Mazura
yesterday





That's the problem democrats (or any sane individual) have with giving carte blanche to build a wall. That's like signing a blank check from your child's tuition fund and handing it to a stranger.

– Mazura
yesterday











51














It's a polarising issue because it symbolises hostility towards foreigners, which is intrinsically an emotive subject.



If you actually want to reduce illegal immigration in the most cost-effective way possible, then other methods (e.g. more careful vetting at ports and airports) probably work better; but the wall sends a visible message "not wanted here".



It thus draws out a division between people who think foreigners should be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible, and those who regard them as an intrinsic threat to the American nation.



Europe has also been building physical barriers against would-be migrants (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-border-wall-berlin-migration-human-rights-immigration-borders-a8624706.html). This hasn't attracted the same level of controversy, mainly because the democratic process in Europe works rather differently.






share|improve this answer


























  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    19 hours ago
















51














It's a polarising issue because it symbolises hostility towards foreigners, which is intrinsically an emotive subject.



If you actually want to reduce illegal immigration in the most cost-effective way possible, then other methods (e.g. more careful vetting at ports and airports) probably work better; but the wall sends a visible message "not wanted here".



It thus draws out a division between people who think foreigners should be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible, and those who regard them as an intrinsic threat to the American nation.



Europe has also been building physical barriers against would-be migrants (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-border-wall-berlin-migration-human-rights-immigration-borders-a8624706.html). This hasn't attracted the same level of controversy, mainly because the democratic process in Europe works rather differently.






share|improve this answer


























  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    19 hours ago














51












51








51







It's a polarising issue because it symbolises hostility towards foreigners, which is intrinsically an emotive subject.



If you actually want to reduce illegal immigration in the most cost-effective way possible, then other methods (e.g. more careful vetting at ports and airports) probably work better; but the wall sends a visible message "not wanted here".



It thus draws out a division between people who think foreigners should be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible, and those who regard them as an intrinsic threat to the American nation.



Europe has also been building physical barriers against would-be migrants (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-border-wall-berlin-migration-human-rights-immigration-borders-a8624706.html). This hasn't attracted the same level of controversy, mainly because the democratic process in Europe works rather differently.






share|improve this answer















It's a polarising issue because it symbolises hostility towards foreigners, which is intrinsically an emotive subject.



If you actually want to reduce illegal immigration in the most cost-effective way possible, then other methods (e.g. more careful vetting at ports and airports) probably work better; but the wall sends a visible message "not wanted here".



It thus draws out a division between people who think foreigners should be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible, and those who regard them as an intrinsic threat to the American nation.



Europe has also been building physical barriers against would-be migrants (see https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-border-wall-berlin-migration-human-rights-immigration-borders-a8624706.html). This hasn't attracted the same level of controversy, mainly because the democratic process in Europe works rather differently.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jan 13 at 18:45

























answered Jan 13 at 18:38









Michael KayMichael Kay

68726




68726













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    19 hours ago



















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    19 hours ago

















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Sam I am
19 hours ago





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Sam I am
19 hours ago











23














The problem with this wall proposal is that we already have a wall. It was built in the 1990s under President Clinton, and expanded under every President since. And the existing wall looks every bit like the Berlin/East Germany wall in sections, complete with double fencing and dog runs. Had then-candidate Trump proposed expanding this wall, it probably would have been uncontroversial. It also would have been much cheaper, but given his personality and his previous remark about "rapists. And a few good people" admitting that we already have a wall wouldn't have been very successful as a campaign promise.



As an aside, Clinton's wall actually backfired. Before the wall was built, Mexican workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season, and then return home.



The wall made the trip much more expensive and difficult. The hope was that this would deter Mexicans (and people from points further south) from crossing into the US. Instead, it deterred them from leaving after harvest season. What used to be undocument non-immigrant workers became year-round undocumented immigrants, who then started bringing wives and children.



That fact is not very well known, though, so it's not likely a factor in why Trump's wall proposal is so polarizing.






share|improve this answer



















  • 3





    Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

    – Peter
    Jan 14 at 11:42











  • The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

    – Kevin Keane
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday






  • 1





    @jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

    – Kevin Keane
    17 hours ago
















23














The problem with this wall proposal is that we already have a wall. It was built in the 1990s under President Clinton, and expanded under every President since. And the existing wall looks every bit like the Berlin/East Germany wall in sections, complete with double fencing and dog runs. Had then-candidate Trump proposed expanding this wall, it probably would have been uncontroversial. It also would have been much cheaper, but given his personality and his previous remark about "rapists. And a few good people" admitting that we already have a wall wouldn't have been very successful as a campaign promise.



As an aside, Clinton's wall actually backfired. Before the wall was built, Mexican workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season, and then return home.



The wall made the trip much more expensive and difficult. The hope was that this would deter Mexicans (and people from points further south) from crossing into the US. Instead, it deterred them from leaving after harvest season. What used to be undocument non-immigrant workers became year-round undocumented immigrants, who then started bringing wives and children.



That fact is not very well known, though, so it's not likely a factor in why Trump's wall proposal is so polarizing.






share|improve this answer



















  • 3





    Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

    – Peter
    Jan 14 at 11:42











  • The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

    – Kevin Keane
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday






  • 1





    @jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

    – Kevin Keane
    17 hours ago














23












23








23







The problem with this wall proposal is that we already have a wall. It was built in the 1990s under President Clinton, and expanded under every President since. And the existing wall looks every bit like the Berlin/East Germany wall in sections, complete with double fencing and dog runs. Had then-candidate Trump proposed expanding this wall, it probably would have been uncontroversial. It also would have been much cheaper, but given his personality and his previous remark about "rapists. And a few good people" admitting that we already have a wall wouldn't have been very successful as a campaign promise.



As an aside, Clinton's wall actually backfired. Before the wall was built, Mexican workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season, and then return home.



The wall made the trip much more expensive and difficult. The hope was that this would deter Mexicans (and people from points further south) from crossing into the US. Instead, it deterred them from leaving after harvest season. What used to be undocument non-immigrant workers became year-round undocumented immigrants, who then started bringing wives and children.



That fact is not very well known, though, so it's not likely a factor in why Trump's wall proposal is so polarizing.






share|improve this answer













The problem with this wall proposal is that we already have a wall. It was built in the 1990s under President Clinton, and expanded under every President since. And the existing wall looks every bit like the Berlin/East Germany wall in sections, complete with double fencing and dog runs. Had then-candidate Trump proposed expanding this wall, it probably would have been uncontroversial. It also would have been much cheaper, but given his personality and his previous remark about "rapists. And a few good people" admitting that we already have a wall wouldn't have been very successful as a campaign promise.



As an aside, Clinton's wall actually backfired. Before the wall was built, Mexican workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season, and then return home.



The wall made the trip much more expensive and difficult. The hope was that this would deter Mexicans (and people from points further south) from crossing into the US. Instead, it deterred them from leaving after harvest season. What used to be undocument non-immigrant workers became year-round undocumented immigrants, who then started bringing wives and children.



That fact is not very well known, though, so it's not likely a factor in why Trump's wall proposal is so polarizing.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Jan 14 at 10:05









Kevin KeaneKevin Keane

71729




71729








  • 3





    Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

    – Peter
    Jan 14 at 11:42











  • The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

    – Kevin Keane
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday






  • 1





    @jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

    – Kevin Keane
    17 hours ago














  • 3





    Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

    – Peter
    Jan 14 at 11:42











  • The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

    – Kevin Keane
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday






  • 1





    @jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

    – Kevin Keane
    17 hours ago








3




3





Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

– Peter
Jan 14 at 11:42





Your answer is insightful, but I don't think it actually answers the question "why is the wall a divisive topic". I do think what you have could be taken in several directions to answer that part as well, and would be interested in reading that expanded answer.

– Peter
Jan 14 at 11:42













The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

– Kevin Keane
2 days ago





The part that I meant to directly answer the question was from "had he proposed expanding the wall it would have been uncontroversial" to "rapists. And a few good people", and the reference to the campaign promise. You are right, the rest of it is elaboration to provide context and background (and thanks for calling it insightful!)

– Kevin Keane
2 days ago




2




2





Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

– jamesqf
yesterday





Re "workers usually tended to come only for a few weeks for harvest season", harvest tends to be a moveable affair. It might start with winter/early spring havest of strawberries & vegetables in California's Imperial Valley (or even in Mexico), and finish in the fall with apples, peaches, &c in Washington state (or even into Canada). Which is why the workers are MIGRANT workers. Would seem far better (since most Americans won't do this work) to simply make such workers legal.

– jamesqf
yesterday




1




1





@jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

– Kevin Keane
17 hours ago





@jamesqf Keep in mind that this was 30 years ago, so making such workers legal today wouldn't change anything. That said, there are visas available for this work, but the quota is very low, and the red tape makes it difficult to use (which farmer knows a year in advance what the weather will be at harvest time?). There also was the braceros program in the 1950s and 1960s, which was also plagued by its own set of problems. That is probably one factor why people in the 1980s perceived migrant harvest workers as a problem.

– Kevin Keane
17 hours ago











15














Here's a sampling of the arguments I've heard from people opposed to the wall. Often from people who live near the border:




  1. Walls and fences are of little value if they are not guarded. Many areas of the border have no telecommunications and are difficult to reach. Example


  2. Tunnels can go under walls.

  3. Most illegal immigrants and drugs come into the country through other means.

  4. In some areas of the border, people have ranches and other property. You first have to take their land through eminent domain and then block their access to the river. Example

  5. When heavy rains hit an area, they run to the nearest river. If you got a wall there, where's the water going? A fence might work better in such areas but debris will collect on it and cause flooding unless it is cleared. Example

  6. Wild life does not respect borders. A wall and even a fence will create ecological consequences that are hard to predict. Example

  7. Native tribes occupy lands that span the border (this is true in the north too) and a wall would divide them. Example


Much of the opposition to the wall is due to the belief that it will be costly and ineffective while creating problems. They disagree that it will be a "real material difference to the electorate", at least in the implied positive way you put it. In a nutshell they don't agree with wasting money on something they see at best as being mostly pointless and at worst highly problematic.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

    – Schwern
    yesterday








  • 1





    @Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

    – JimmyJames
    yesterday


















15














Here's a sampling of the arguments I've heard from people opposed to the wall. Often from people who live near the border:




  1. Walls and fences are of little value if they are not guarded. Many areas of the border have no telecommunications and are difficult to reach. Example


  2. Tunnels can go under walls.

  3. Most illegal immigrants and drugs come into the country through other means.

  4. In some areas of the border, people have ranches and other property. You first have to take their land through eminent domain and then block their access to the river. Example

  5. When heavy rains hit an area, they run to the nearest river. If you got a wall there, where's the water going? A fence might work better in such areas but debris will collect on it and cause flooding unless it is cleared. Example

  6. Wild life does not respect borders. A wall and even a fence will create ecological consequences that are hard to predict. Example

  7. Native tribes occupy lands that span the border (this is true in the north too) and a wall would divide them. Example


Much of the opposition to the wall is due to the belief that it will be costly and ineffective while creating problems. They disagree that it will be a "real material difference to the electorate", at least in the implied positive way you put it. In a nutshell they don't agree with wasting money on something they see at best as being mostly pointless and at worst highly problematic.






share|improve this answer





















  • 2





    While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

    – Schwern
    yesterday








  • 1





    @Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

    – JimmyJames
    yesterday
















15












15








15







Here's a sampling of the arguments I've heard from people opposed to the wall. Often from people who live near the border:




  1. Walls and fences are of little value if they are not guarded. Many areas of the border have no telecommunications and are difficult to reach. Example


  2. Tunnels can go under walls.

  3. Most illegal immigrants and drugs come into the country through other means.

  4. In some areas of the border, people have ranches and other property. You first have to take their land through eminent domain and then block their access to the river. Example

  5. When heavy rains hit an area, they run to the nearest river. If you got a wall there, where's the water going? A fence might work better in such areas but debris will collect on it and cause flooding unless it is cleared. Example

  6. Wild life does not respect borders. A wall and even a fence will create ecological consequences that are hard to predict. Example

  7. Native tribes occupy lands that span the border (this is true in the north too) and a wall would divide them. Example


Much of the opposition to the wall is due to the belief that it will be costly and ineffective while creating problems. They disagree that it will be a "real material difference to the electorate", at least in the implied positive way you put it. In a nutshell they don't agree with wasting money on something they see at best as being mostly pointless and at worst highly problematic.






share|improve this answer















Here's a sampling of the arguments I've heard from people opposed to the wall. Often from people who live near the border:




  1. Walls and fences are of little value if they are not guarded. Many areas of the border have no telecommunications and are difficult to reach. Example


  2. Tunnels can go under walls.

  3. Most illegal immigrants and drugs come into the country through other means.

  4. In some areas of the border, people have ranches and other property. You first have to take their land through eminent domain and then block their access to the river. Example

  5. When heavy rains hit an area, they run to the nearest river. If you got a wall there, where's the water going? A fence might work better in such areas but debris will collect on it and cause flooding unless it is cleared. Example

  6. Wild life does not respect borders. A wall and even a fence will create ecological consequences that are hard to predict. Example

  7. Native tribes occupy lands that span the border (this is true in the north too) and a wall would divide them. Example


Much of the opposition to the wall is due to the belief that it will be costly and ineffective while creating problems. They disagree that it will be a "real material difference to the electorate", at least in the implied positive way you put it. In a nutshell they don't agree with wasting money on something they see at best as being mostly pointless and at worst highly problematic.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered 2 days ago









JimmyJamesJimmyJames

6991512




6991512








  • 2





    While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

    – Schwern
    yesterday








  • 1





    @Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

    – JimmyJames
    yesterday
















  • 2





    While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

    – Schwern
    yesterday








  • 1





    @Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

    – JimmyJames
    yesterday










2




2





While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

– Schwern
yesterday







While I agree these are all practical and factual arguments against a border wall, and +1 for bringing them up, I don't agree this is the reason it's so polarizing. The US is not having a practical and factual debate right now. The wall is an emotional proxy for hopes and fears about immigration.

– Schwern
yesterday






1




1





@Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

– JimmyJames
yesterday







@Schwern I'm addressing this: "Why is this seemingly normal function of government seen as such a contentious issue that it's worth shutting down the government for". I believe that the idea that the debate over the wall is pro-immigration vs. anti-immigration is bullshit. There's a false narrative that if you are against the wall, you must want iimmigrants coming into the country illegally. This is nonsense. Many people are against the wall because they are against foolishly wasting resources on a symbol simply so that Trump can claim he make good on a silly campaign promise.

– JimmyJames
yesterday













8














The short answer is that some private citizens and elected officials think a border wall will substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting as a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security and other private citizens and elected officials think that a border wall will not substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is not a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security.



The issue might presently appear to some to be particularly polarizing because it is a case of first impression and is a live controversy directly involving or affecting several nations and millions of people that has not been settled.






share|improve this answer



















  • 21





    I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

    – user1450877
    Jan 12 at 1:10






  • 9





    We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

    – MolonLabe
    Jan 12 at 4:45






  • 5





    You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 20:03






  • 2





    @jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

    – Ben Voigt
    Jan 13 at 18:21






  • 4





    @MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

    – CramerTV
    2 days ago
















8














The short answer is that some private citizens and elected officials think a border wall will substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting as a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security and other private citizens and elected officials think that a border wall will not substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is not a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security.



The issue might presently appear to some to be particularly polarizing because it is a case of first impression and is a live controversy directly involving or affecting several nations and millions of people that has not been settled.






share|improve this answer



















  • 21





    I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

    – user1450877
    Jan 12 at 1:10






  • 9





    We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

    – MolonLabe
    Jan 12 at 4:45






  • 5





    You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 20:03






  • 2





    @jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

    – Ben Voigt
    Jan 13 at 18:21






  • 4





    @MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

    – CramerTV
    2 days ago














8












8








8







The short answer is that some private citizens and elected officials think a border wall will substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting as a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security and other private citizens and elected officials think that a border wall will not substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is not a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security.



The issue might presently appear to some to be particularly polarizing because it is a case of first impression and is a live controversy directly involving or affecting several nations and millions of people that has not been settled.






share|improve this answer













The short answer is that some private citizens and elected officials think a border wall will substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting as a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security and other private citizens and elected officials think that a border wall will not substantially contribute to the policy objective of acting a deterrent to illegal immigration and drug smuggling and is not a sound proposed investment in U.S. national security.



The issue might presently appear to some to be particularly polarizing because it is a case of first impression and is a live controversy directly involving or affecting several nations and millions of people that has not been settled.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Jan 11 at 23:09









guest271314guest271314

1,99319




1,99319








  • 21





    I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

    – user1450877
    Jan 12 at 1:10






  • 9





    We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

    – MolonLabe
    Jan 12 at 4:45






  • 5





    You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 20:03






  • 2





    @jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

    – Ben Voigt
    Jan 13 at 18:21






  • 4





    @MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

    – CramerTV
    2 days ago














  • 21





    I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

    – user1450877
    Jan 12 at 1:10






  • 9





    We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

    – MolonLabe
    Jan 12 at 4:45






  • 5





    You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

    – jamesqf
    Jan 12 at 20:03






  • 2





    @jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

    – Ben Voigt
    Jan 13 at 18:21






  • 4





    @MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

    – CramerTV
    2 days ago








21




21





I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

– user1450877
Jan 12 at 1:10





I don't think disagreement about the effectiveness of the wall is the issue. If the effectiveness of government programs costing 5 billion or more was sufficient reason to shut down government then the government would be permanently shut down.

– user1450877
Jan 12 at 1:10




9




9





We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

– MolonLabe
Jan 12 at 4:45





We spend $50 billion dollars a year on foreign aid with no tangible returns on investment. I agree that it's not about the $

– MolonLabe
Jan 12 at 4:45




5




5





You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

– jamesqf
Jan 12 at 20:03





You could add a third group: people who think the Wall would not just be ineffective and thus a waste of money, but would be counterproductive in addressing the actual problems (to the extent that they really are problems, and not just Trump race-baiting), even if Mexico really would pay for it.

– jamesqf
Jan 12 at 20:03




2




2





@jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

– Ben Voigt
Jan 13 at 18:21





@jamesqf: And a group for whom deterring unrestricted immigration is not a policy objective (not sure if you meant your third group to be that, or it is a fourth)

– Ben Voigt
Jan 13 at 18:21




4




4





@MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

– CramerTV
2 days ago





@MolonLabe, I've heard that argument but how do you measure the effectiveness of sending $1B to, say, Venezuela for humanitarian purposes and a reduction of the number of people fleeing that country to the US border? The main purpose of foreign aid, it seems to me, is to stabilize another country so the residents can remain there safely. Would it be better to let them flee and have millions of people on the US border instead of thousands?

– CramerTV
2 days ago











7














I'm not trying to go full PoMo here, but meaning is often socially constructed.



Anything can be politically polarizing if a critical mass of people perceive it to be that way. We could be talking about a waist-high barrier in someone's back yard if such a thing came to national attention and had some sort of symbolic weight.



Think about some issues that are political issues (at least in the US) that shouldn't be: climate change, voter fraud, etc. But as I've said elsewhere on this site, these things aren't just subjects for discussion but membership cards, marking people as one of us/those people we hate.



We cannot have real conversations anymore about these topics. They have been hijacked to denote tribal affiliation. Attempting to make any sort of argument on the object-level question will end in disaster. Indeed, based on the comments and downvotes, merely citing an example pointing this out has been a disaster.



The case of climate change is particularly instructive: I've repeatedly had the following conversation and it goes the same way every time:



Other Person: "I don't see why anyone would doubt the scientific consensus on climate change"



Me: "Are you a climate scientist? Hang out with any? Read any peer-reviewed literature on the topic over the last 20 years? Even just the abstract of a single paper from the last 20 years? How do you know what the scientific consensus is?"



Other Person: "You're obviously one of those science-denying Fox-watching troglodytes."



Every. Single. Time.



The problem is that I'm addressing the statement at the object level. What the other person is actually saying is "I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican-haters club" and when I say what I say they translate it to "I'm a Republican, come at me bro".



The problem is this is an especially crappy thing to treat this way: the future of the planet may well depend on having the correct policies around this issue. But we can't have a frank conversation about it anymore.



Illegal immigration is in the same boat (albeit not as critical to the fate of the planet), and the wall is just the rallying point for opposing forces. It could have been anything. I'd have preferred they picked something that didn't cost $5 billion, but that's another topic.






share|improve this answer





















  • 7





    This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

    – JJJ
    Jan 13 at 1:10






  • 1





    @JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

    – Jared Smith
    Jan 13 at 20:08













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    14 hours ago
















7














I'm not trying to go full PoMo here, but meaning is often socially constructed.



Anything can be politically polarizing if a critical mass of people perceive it to be that way. We could be talking about a waist-high barrier in someone's back yard if such a thing came to national attention and had some sort of symbolic weight.



Think about some issues that are political issues (at least in the US) that shouldn't be: climate change, voter fraud, etc. But as I've said elsewhere on this site, these things aren't just subjects for discussion but membership cards, marking people as one of us/those people we hate.



We cannot have real conversations anymore about these topics. They have been hijacked to denote tribal affiliation. Attempting to make any sort of argument on the object-level question will end in disaster. Indeed, based on the comments and downvotes, merely citing an example pointing this out has been a disaster.



The case of climate change is particularly instructive: I've repeatedly had the following conversation and it goes the same way every time:



Other Person: "I don't see why anyone would doubt the scientific consensus on climate change"



Me: "Are you a climate scientist? Hang out with any? Read any peer-reviewed literature on the topic over the last 20 years? Even just the abstract of a single paper from the last 20 years? How do you know what the scientific consensus is?"



Other Person: "You're obviously one of those science-denying Fox-watching troglodytes."



Every. Single. Time.



The problem is that I'm addressing the statement at the object level. What the other person is actually saying is "I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican-haters club" and when I say what I say they translate it to "I'm a Republican, come at me bro".



The problem is this is an especially crappy thing to treat this way: the future of the planet may well depend on having the correct policies around this issue. But we can't have a frank conversation about it anymore.



Illegal immigration is in the same boat (albeit not as critical to the fate of the planet), and the wall is just the rallying point for opposing forces. It could have been anything. I'd have preferred they picked something that didn't cost $5 billion, but that's another topic.






share|improve this answer





















  • 7





    This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

    – JJJ
    Jan 13 at 1:10






  • 1





    @JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

    – Jared Smith
    Jan 13 at 20:08













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    14 hours ago














7












7








7







I'm not trying to go full PoMo here, but meaning is often socially constructed.



Anything can be politically polarizing if a critical mass of people perceive it to be that way. We could be talking about a waist-high barrier in someone's back yard if such a thing came to national attention and had some sort of symbolic weight.



Think about some issues that are political issues (at least in the US) that shouldn't be: climate change, voter fraud, etc. But as I've said elsewhere on this site, these things aren't just subjects for discussion but membership cards, marking people as one of us/those people we hate.



We cannot have real conversations anymore about these topics. They have been hijacked to denote tribal affiliation. Attempting to make any sort of argument on the object-level question will end in disaster. Indeed, based on the comments and downvotes, merely citing an example pointing this out has been a disaster.



The case of climate change is particularly instructive: I've repeatedly had the following conversation and it goes the same way every time:



Other Person: "I don't see why anyone would doubt the scientific consensus on climate change"



Me: "Are you a climate scientist? Hang out with any? Read any peer-reviewed literature on the topic over the last 20 years? Even just the abstract of a single paper from the last 20 years? How do you know what the scientific consensus is?"



Other Person: "You're obviously one of those science-denying Fox-watching troglodytes."



Every. Single. Time.



The problem is that I'm addressing the statement at the object level. What the other person is actually saying is "I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican-haters club" and when I say what I say they translate it to "I'm a Republican, come at me bro".



The problem is this is an especially crappy thing to treat this way: the future of the planet may well depend on having the correct policies around this issue. But we can't have a frank conversation about it anymore.



Illegal immigration is in the same boat (albeit not as critical to the fate of the planet), and the wall is just the rallying point for opposing forces. It could have been anything. I'd have preferred they picked something that didn't cost $5 billion, but that's another topic.






share|improve this answer















I'm not trying to go full PoMo here, but meaning is often socially constructed.



Anything can be politically polarizing if a critical mass of people perceive it to be that way. We could be talking about a waist-high barrier in someone's back yard if such a thing came to national attention and had some sort of symbolic weight.



Think about some issues that are political issues (at least in the US) that shouldn't be: climate change, voter fraud, etc. But as I've said elsewhere on this site, these things aren't just subjects for discussion but membership cards, marking people as one of us/those people we hate.



We cannot have real conversations anymore about these topics. They have been hijacked to denote tribal affiliation. Attempting to make any sort of argument on the object-level question will end in disaster. Indeed, based on the comments and downvotes, merely citing an example pointing this out has been a disaster.



The case of climate change is particularly instructive: I've repeatedly had the following conversation and it goes the same way every time:



Other Person: "I don't see why anyone would doubt the scientific consensus on climate change"



Me: "Are you a climate scientist? Hang out with any? Read any peer-reviewed literature on the topic over the last 20 years? Even just the abstract of a single paper from the last 20 years? How do you know what the scientific consensus is?"



Other Person: "You're obviously one of those science-denying Fox-watching troglodytes."



Every. Single. Time.



The problem is that I'm addressing the statement at the object level. What the other person is actually saying is "I'm a card-carrying member of the Republican-haters club" and when I say what I say they translate it to "I'm a Republican, come at me bro".



The problem is this is an especially crappy thing to treat this way: the future of the planet may well depend on having the correct policies around this issue. But we can't have a frank conversation about it anymore.



Illegal immigration is in the same boat (albeit not as critical to the fate of the planet), and the wall is just the rallying point for opposing forces. It could have been anything. I'd have preferred they picked something that didn't cost $5 billion, but that's another topic.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered Jan 13 at 0:33









Jared SmithJared Smith

4,05821120




4,05821120








  • 7





    This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

    – JJJ
    Jan 13 at 1:10






  • 1





    @JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

    – Jared Smith
    Jan 13 at 20:08













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    14 hours ago














  • 7





    This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

    – JJJ
    Jan 13 at 1:10






  • 1





    @JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

    – Jared Smith
    Jan 13 at 20:08













  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Sam I am
    14 hours ago








7




7





This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

– JJJ
Jan 13 at 1:10





This doesn't quite explain why this particular issue turned out so polarising. As you say, anything can become polarising but not everything does (to this extent). So why this issue?

– JJJ
Jan 13 at 1:10




1




1





@JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

– Jared Smith
Jan 13 at 20:08







@JJJ sorry I wasn't more clear, but the point I was trying to make is that it's quasi-random. Why do some species thrive while others die out? You can say their more fit to the current environment, but that just pushes it back a step. What determines the environmental conditions? Politically this plays out as slight difference of opinion + tenuous connection to pre-existing narratives + feedback loop = something people in other countries make fun of you for.

– Jared Smith
Jan 13 at 20:08















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Sam I am
14 hours ago





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Sam I am
14 hours ago











5














The wall itself (whether effective or otherwise) is a symbol for the entire debate concerning how open America should be to immigration.



enter image description here



Large numbers of people also incorrectly believe most immigrants are here illegally, making their opinions on illegal immigration a proxy for their opinions on immigration generally
enter image description here



One of the reasons for this debate is that it is very difficult for people to enter the United States legally.





  • If you are the child (over 21 years of age) of a US citizen, you are
    in the first preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can
    be six years.

  • If you are the child or spouse of a green card holder,
    you are in the second preference. The wait for a US visa in this
    category can be five to ten years.

  • If you are the married child of a US citizen, you are in third preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can be eight years.

  • If you are the sibling of a US citizen, you are in fourth preference. Several things can affect waiting times of family-sponsored green card applications.




People who think we should be more open to immigration see this and oppose steps to enforce our immigration laws because they see our immigration system's rejection of people who want to contribute to our country's success as both immoral and counterproductive, as well as a general failure for our government to enact laws to open up our immigration system more generally. They also see it as against our basic cultural values and against the source of some of our most impactful successes. This motivates a lot of the "sanctuary" legislation and more general opposition to the wall.



On the other side there are a few camps, those hostile to foreigners because they are essentially racist (it is perhaps educational to wonder why there is no clamoring to build a wall between the USA and Canada and secure our northern border). Then there are those hostile to foreigners because they are foreign (see Michael Kay's answer, additionally they may see competent foreign competition as a threat to their own employment or salary) and finally those that are hostile to immigrants who enter illegally because they see them as inherently law breakers (they entered "illegally", after all) and therefore automatically criminals and likely to commit more crimes (despite the general lower incidence of crime among immigrants when compared to the population at large). (Edit: I believe the arguments helpfully laid out by TheLeopard in the comments below are representative of those given by this last group) enter image description here






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

    – jpmc26
    yesterday











  • Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

    – TheLeopard
    22 hours ago













  • @TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

    – TemporalWolf
    16 hours ago











  • I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago











  • Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago
















5














The wall itself (whether effective or otherwise) is a symbol for the entire debate concerning how open America should be to immigration.



enter image description here



Large numbers of people also incorrectly believe most immigrants are here illegally, making their opinions on illegal immigration a proxy for their opinions on immigration generally
enter image description here



One of the reasons for this debate is that it is very difficult for people to enter the United States legally.





  • If you are the child (over 21 years of age) of a US citizen, you are
    in the first preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can
    be six years.

  • If you are the child or spouse of a green card holder,
    you are in the second preference. The wait for a US visa in this
    category can be five to ten years.

  • If you are the married child of a US citizen, you are in third preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can be eight years.

  • If you are the sibling of a US citizen, you are in fourth preference. Several things can affect waiting times of family-sponsored green card applications.




People who think we should be more open to immigration see this and oppose steps to enforce our immigration laws because they see our immigration system's rejection of people who want to contribute to our country's success as both immoral and counterproductive, as well as a general failure for our government to enact laws to open up our immigration system more generally. They also see it as against our basic cultural values and against the source of some of our most impactful successes. This motivates a lot of the "sanctuary" legislation and more general opposition to the wall.



On the other side there are a few camps, those hostile to foreigners because they are essentially racist (it is perhaps educational to wonder why there is no clamoring to build a wall between the USA and Canada and secure our northern border). Then there are those hostile to foreigners because they are foreign (see Michael Kay's answer, additionally they may see competent foreign competition as a threat to their own employment or salary) and finally those that are hostile to immigrants who enter illegally because they see them as inherently law breakers (they entered "illegally", after all) and therefore automatically criminals and likely to commit more crimes (despite the general lower incidence of crime among immigrants when compared to the population at large). (Edit: I believe the arguments helpfully laid out by TheLeopard in the comments below are representative of those given by this last group) enter image description here






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

    – jpmc26
    yesterday











  • Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

    – TheLeopard
    22 hours ago













  • @TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

    – TemporalWolf
    16 hours ago











  • I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago











  • Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago














5












5








5







The wall itself (whether effective or otherwise) is a symbol for the entire debate concerning how open America should be to immigration.



enter image description here



Large numbers of people also incorrectly believe most immigrants are here illegally, making their opinions on illegal immigration a proxy for their opinions on immigration generally
enter image description here



One of the reasons for this debate is that it is very difficult for people to enter the United States legally.





  • If you are the child (over 21 years of age) of a US citizen, you are
    in the first preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can
    be six years.

  • If you are the child or spouse of a green card holder,
    you are in the second preference. The wait for a US visa in this
    category can be five to ten years.

  • If you are the married child of a US citizen, you are in third preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can be eight years.

  • If you are the sibling of a US citizen, you are in fourth preference. Several things can affect waiting times of family-sponsored green card applications.




People who think we should be more open to immigration see this and oppose steps to enforce our immigration laws because they see our immigration system's rejection of people who want to contribute to our country's success as both immoral and counterproductive, as well as a general failure for our government to enact laws to open up our immigration system more generally. They also see it as against our basic cultural values and against the source of some of our most impactful successes. This motivates a lot of the "sanctuary" legislation and more general opposition to the wall.



On the other side there are a few camps, those hostile to foreigners because they are essentially racist (it is perhaps educational to wonder why there is no clamoring to build a wall between the USA and Canada and secure our northern border). Then there are those hostile to foreigners because they are foreign (see Michael Kay's answer, additionally they may see competent foreign competition as a threat to their own employment or salary) and finally those that are hostile to immigrants who enter illegally because they see them as inherently law breakers (they entered "illegally", after all) and therefore automatically criminals and likely to commit more crimes (despite the general lower incidence of crime among immigrants when compared to the population at large). (Edit: I believe the arguments helpfully laid out by TheLeopard in the comments below are representative of those given by this last group) enter image description here






share|improve this answer















The wall itself (whether effective or otherwise) is a symbol for the entire debate concerning how open America should be to immigration.



enter image description here



Large numbers of people also incorrectly believe most immigrants are here illegally, making their opinions on illegal immigration a proxy for their opinions on immigration generally
enter image description here



One of the reasons for this debate is that it is very difficult for people to enter the United States legally.





  • If you are the child (over 21 years of age) of a US citizen, you are
    in the first preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can
    be six years.

  • If you are the child or spouse of a green card holder,
    you are in the second preference. The wait for a US visa in this
    category can be five to ten years.

  • If you are the married child of a US citizen, you are in third preference. The wait for a US visa in this category can be eight years.

  • If you are the sibling of a US citizen, you are in fourth preference. Several things can affect waiting times of family-sponsored green card applications.




People who think we should be more open to immigration see this and oppose steps to enforce our immigration laws because they see our immigration system's rejection of people who want to contribute to our country's success as both immoral and counterproductive, as well as a general failure for our government to enact laws to open up our immigration system more generally. They also see it as against our basic cultural values and against the source of some of our most impactful successes. This motivates a lot of the "sanctuary" legislation and more general opposition to the wall.



On the other side there are a few camps, those hostile to foreigners because they are essentially racist (it is perhaps educational to wonder why there is no clamoring to build a wall between the USA and Canada and secure our northern border). Then there are those hostile to foreigners because they are foreign (see Michael Kay's answer, additionally they may see competent foreign competition as a threat to their own employment or salary) and finally those that are hostile to immigrants who enter illegally because they see them as inherently law breakers (they entered "illegally", after all) and therefore automatically criminals and likely to commit more crimes (despite the general lower incidence of crime among immigrants when compared to the population at large). (Edit: I believe the arguments helpfully laid out by TheLeopard in the comments below are representative of those given by this last group) enter image description here







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 12 hours ago

























answered yesterday









magnus.orionmagnus.orion

528113




528113








  • 1





    This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

    – jpmc26
    yesterday











  • Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

    – TheLeopard
    22 hours ago













  • @TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

    – TemporalWolf
    16 hours ago











  • I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago











  • Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago














  • 1





    This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

    – jpmc26
    yesterday











  • Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

    – TheLeopard
    22 hours ago













  • @TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

    – TemporalWolf
    16 hours ago











  • I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago











  • Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

    – TheLeopard
    14 hours ago








1




1





This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

– jpmc26
yesterday





This is a lie. The way to increase immigration is to make legal immigration simpler. No one is trying to do that. They are only trying to maintain illegal immigration.

– jpmc26
yesterday













Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

– TheLeopard
22 hours ago







Illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country, so Americans shouldn't have to suffer their crimes at all. Among nearly 4,000 first- and second-degree murder convictions, undocumented immigrants accounted for nearly 13 percent — significantly higher than their percentage of the population. Undocumented immigrants also accounted for five times the rate of convictions for money laundering and kidnapping, and were three times more likely to be convicted of drive-by shootings. washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/…

– TheLeopard
22 hours ago















@TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

– TemporalWolf
16 hours ago





@TheLeopard So I found the study you quoted and it's worth mentioning, the author of that study, John Lott, has been caught cooking the books on his statistics in the past (detailed here under Myth One).

– TemporalWolf
16 hours ago













I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

– TheLeopard
14 hours ago





I reviewed the analysis you linked and the author states that Lott used an inadequate data set and statistical model. The author does not state that Lott made fraudulent statements or falsifications, which is what cooking the books means. The author goes on to state in Myth Two that " It is quite common, even typical, for rival studies to be published using econometric methods to reach opposite conclusions about the same issue."

– TheLeopard
14 hours ago













Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

– TheLeopard
14 hours ago





Here's one about the fraud felonies illegals commit thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/… and another article with linked GAO reports about it thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/…

– TheLeopard
14 hours ago











2















They could make a deal




The problem is Trump himself. He reneges on deals, sometimes even before the "other side" has left the room. Before you can possibly make any sort of deal, both sides need to have some credibility that the other would uphold their side of a bargain. To date, Trump, as President, has not shown that he is willing to back his words and tweets with any reliability.




surely ... are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well?




I don't agree that the border is suddenly a crisis. The majority of illegal immigrants arrive with legal visas and overstay their visa. These will not be affected by any sort of magic wall. The insistence on a wall along the border with Mexico and complete silence about a wall along the border with Canada strikes me as mendacious racism.




The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany.



GDR authorities officially referred to the Berlin Wall as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart




When East Germany built the Berlin Wall, they claimed that it was to protect DDR from "fascists" sneaking over the border sabotaging East Germany. In fact, it was built to keep East Germans from escaping. That so much effort has been devoted to the current "emergency", along to so many lies, tells me that the real reason for the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, but Americans in. I see no reason to assist Trump in building a Tortilla Curtain.






share|improve this answer
























  • Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

    – Shadur
    8 hours ago
















2















They could make a deal




The problem is Trump himself. He reneges on deals, sometimes even before the "other side" has left the room. Before you can possibly make any sort of deal, both sides need to have some credibility that the other would uphold their side of a bargain. To date, Trump, as President, has not shown that he is willing to back his words and tweets with any reliability.




surely ... are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well?




I don't agree that the border is suddenly a crisis. The majority of illegal immigrants arrive with legal visas and overstay their visa. These will not be affected by any sort of magic wall. The insistence on a wall along the border with Mexico and complete silence about a wall along the border with Canada strikes me as mendacious racism.




The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany.



GDR authorities officially referred to the Berlin Wall as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart




When East Germany built the Berlin Wall, they claimed that it was to protect DDR from "fascists" sneaking over the border sabotaging East Germany. In fact, it was built to keep East Germans from escaping. That so much effort has been devoted to the current "emergency", along to so many lies, tells me that the real reason for the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, but Americans in. I see no reason to assist Trump in building a Tortilla Curtain.






share|improve this answer
























  • Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

    – Shadur
    8 hours ago














2












2








2








They could make a deal




The problem is Trump himself. He reneges on deals, sometimes even before the "other side" has left the room. Before you can possibly make any sort of deal, both sides need to have some credibility that the other would uphold their side of a bargain. To date, Trump, as President, has not shown that he is willing to back his words and tweets with any reliability.




surely ... are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well?




I don't agree that the border is suddenly a crisis. The majority of illegal immigrants arrive with legal visas and overstay their visa. These will not be affected by any sort of magic wall. The insistence on a wall along the border with Mexico and complete silence about a wall along the border with Canada strikes me as mendacious racism.




The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany.



GDR authorities officially referred to the Berlin Wall as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart




When East Germany built the Berlin Wall, they claimed that it was to protect DDR from "fascists" sneaking over the border sabotaging East Germany. In fact, it was built to keep East Germans from escaping. That so much effort has been devoted to the current "emergency", along to so many lies, tells me that the real reason for the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, but Americans in. I see no reason to assist Trump in building a Tortilla Curtain.






share|improve this answer














They could make a deal




The problem is Trump himself. He reneges on deals, sometimes even before the "other side" has left the room. Before you can possibly make any sort of deal, both sides need to have some credibility that the other would uphold their side of a bargain. To date, Trump, as President, has not shown that he is willing to back his words and tweets with any reliability.




surely ... are equally affected by the criminal behaviour as well?




I don't agree that the border is suddenly a crisis. The majority of illegal immigrants arrive with legal visas and overstay their visa. These will not be affected by any sort of magic wall. The insistence on a wall along the border with Mexico and complete silence about a wall along the border with Canada strikes me as mendacious racism.




The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany.



GDR authorities officially referred to the Berlin Wall as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart




When East Germany built the Berlin Wall, they claimed that it was to protect DDR from "fascists" sneaking over the border sabotaging East Germany. In fact, it was built to keep East Germans from escaping. That so much effort has been devoted to the current "emergency", along to so many lies, tells me that the real reason for the wall is not to keep Mexicans out, but Americans in. I see no reason to assist Trump in building a Tortilla Curtain.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









TangurenaTangurena

34716




34716













  • Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

    – Shadur
    8 hours ago



















  • Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

    – Shadur
    8 hours ago

















Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

– Shadur
8 hours ago





Also, giving in and "making a deal" would give Trump the impression that causing a shutdown is a good way of getting whatever he wants, which encourages him to do it again the next time there's disagreement.

– Shadur
8 hours ago











-2














Because the government has done nothing but give amnesty to line cutters. As well as slap on the wrists to businesses who illegally hire illegal immigrants. At least Trump is doing something (anything), and shows that the democrats will do nothing. The natural born and legal citizens are tired of being giving 2nd class treatment by elites. With most seeing democrats, and the voting history of illegal immigrants, having a large stake and bias in the outcome.






share|improve this answer
























  • Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

    – Craig Hicks
    7 hours ago


















-2














Because the government has done nothing but give amnesty to line cutters. As well as slap on the wrists to businesses who illegally hire illegal immigrants. At least Trump is doing something (anything), and shows that the democrats will do nothing. The natural born and legal citizens are tired of being giving 2nd class treatment by elites. With most seeing democrats, and the voting history of illegal immigrants, having a large stake and bias in the outcome.






share|improve this answer
























  • Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

    – Craig Hicks
    7 hours ago
















-2












-2








-2







Because the government has done nothing but give amnesty to line cutters. As well as slap on the wrists to businesses who illegally hire illegal immigrants. At least Trump is doing something (anything), and shows that the democrats will do nothing. The natural born and legal citizens are tired of being giving 2nd class treatment by elites. With most seeing democrats, and the voting history of illegal immigrants, having a large stake and bias in the outcome.






share|improve this answer













Because the government has done nothing but give amnesty to line cutters. As well as slap on the wrists to businesses who illegally hire illegal immigrants. At least Trump is doing something (anything), and shows that the democrats will do nothing. The natural born and legal citizens are tired of being giving 2nd class treatment by elites. With most seeing democrats, and the voting history of illegal immigrants, having a large stake and bias in the outcome.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 19 hours ago









pauljpaulj

1415




1415













  • Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

    – Craig Hicks
    7 hours ago





















  • Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

    – Craig Hicks
    7 hours ago



















Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

– Craig Hicks
7 hours ago







Trump companies hire undocumented immigrants. [fox61.com/2018/12/09/… US businesses hire millions of undocumented immigrants. At this point there would be an economic crisis if they were to leave all at once.

– Craig Hicks
7 hours ago







protected by Philipp Jan 13 at 0:36



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