Why do we divide Permutations to get to Combinations?












2












$begingroup$


I'm having a hard time reasoning through the formula for combinations $frac{n!}{k!left(n-kright)!}$. I understand the reason for the permutations formula and I know that for the combinations we divide by $k!$ to adjust for the repeated cases, since order does not matter. But what exactly happens when we divide the set of permutations by $k!$ ?



I know this may seem like a silly question... I just can't take this for granted, lest I miss a chance to apply it correctly. Can you describe what's happening here step by step, sort like debugging a script?










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$endgroup$

















    2












    $begingroup$


    I'm having a hard time reasoning through the formula for combinations $frac{n!}{k!left(n-kright)!}$. I understand the reason for the permutations formula and I know that for the combinations we divide by $k!$ to adjust for the repeated cases, since order does not matter. But what exactly happens when we divide the set of permutations by $k!$ ?



    I know this may seem like a silly question... I just can't take this for granted, lest I miss a chance to apply it correctly. Can you describe what's happening here step by step, sort like debugging a script?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      I'm having a hard time reasoning through the formula for combinations $frac{n!}{k!left(n-kright)!}$. I understand the reason for the permutations formula and I know that for the combinations we divide by $k!$ to adjust for the repeated cases, since order does not matter. But what exactly happens when we divide the set of permutations by $k!$ ?



      I know this may seem like a silly question... I just can't take this for granted, lest I miss a chance to apply it correctly. Can you describe what's happening here step by step, sort like debugging a script?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I'm having a hard time reasoning through the formula for combinations $frac{n!}{k!left(n-kright)!}$. I understand the reason for the permutations formula and I know that for the combinations we divide by $k!$ to adjust for the repeated cases, since order does not matter. But what exactly happens when we divide the set of permutations by $k!$ ?



      I know this may seem like a silly question... I just can't take this for granted, lest I miss a chance to apply it correctly. Can you describe what's happening here step by step, sort like debugging a script?







      combinatorics permutations






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 6 hours ago









      Bernard

      121k740116




      121k740116










      asked 6 hours ago









      Daniel OscarDaniel Oscar

      1388




      1388






















          5 Answers
          5






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2












          $begingroup$

          Maybe, looking at an example clarifies this best :



          You have $20$ objects and have to choose $5$ of them. How many possibilities are there ?



          You have $20,19,18,17,16$ choices explaining how $frac{20!}{15!}$ comes into the play.



          Now each combination can appear in $5!$ possible orders which correspond to the same combination. Therefore we have to divide by $5!$ to find the number of combinations.



          This can be generalized to arbitary numbers explaining how the binomial coefficient emerges.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            2












            $begingroup$

            Let's bunch together permutations that have the same content. Each resulting equivalence class has $k!$ members. Therefore, the number of such classes is $k!$ times smaller than the number of permutations. A combination is just an equivalence class or, if you prefer, one nominated element thereof.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$





















              1












              $begingroup$

              Assume that you want to know the number of combinations of $k$ elements out of $n$ elements. One way to pick such a combination is the arrange all $n$ elements in any arbitrary order (there are $n!$ ways to do so) and pick the first $k$ of them as "your selection". As the remaining $n-k$ elements can be arranged in any order, each ordered selection of the first $k$ elements appears $(n-k)!$ times in the set of all permutations of the $n$ elements, so you have to divide $n!$ by $(n-k)!$ to count the different (ordered) "selections" of $k$ elements. Now, as you are not interested in the order of the $k$ elements, all $k!$ permutations of a "selection" represent the same combination, so you still have to divide the number by $k!$, which makes a total of $frac{n!}{k!(n-k)!}$ combinations. So, in short, this dividing "removes the order" when counting (here: the order of the first $k$ elements and the order of the remaining $n-k$ elements).






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$





















                1












                $begingroup$

                This is the formula for selecting from a distinct list of items. Lets say we pick from 100 songs on a top song list. We only care to pick the top 5 songs. Okay, there are 100! ways to arrange the songs on the original list. Once we take off the top 5, two things happen. The order of the remaining 95 don't matter they aren't the top 5, dividing by 95! cuts that away. We don't care what order the Top 5 are played in, so we divide out the possible orders those top 5 could have, 5! in total number. This arrives us at: $$frac{100!}{(95!)(5!)}$$



                EDIT: To show why distinctness matters, Here's a case, where it won't give you the number of distinguishable states chessboard positions (legal or not, with all 32 pieces). Why because you have 2 each of indistinguishable rooks,knights,and bishops on each side, as well as 8 indistinguishable pawns on each. This means there are 2×2×2×2×2×2×40,560×40,560= 105,287,270,400 times as many positions if you distinguish between indistinguisable pieces swapping places. brings it less than $1.22times 10^{78}$ instead of more than 1.26 times 10 to the 89 .






                share|cite|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                $endgroup$





















                  0












                  $begingroup$

                  Imagine you have $5$ sports cars that are to be displayed in an event, but there are only 3 spots avaiable. Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari, Porsche, and Bugatti.



                  Let's say you choose a Mercedez, a Ferrari, and a Lamborghini. There are $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ ways to arrange these cars



                  Notice, however, that the display (Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari) is the same display as (Mercedez, Ferrari, Lamborghini) because you have the same selection of cars. You can arrange $3$ objects in $3!$ ways and still have the same collection of objects.



                  Therefore you must divide the $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ by $3!$, leading to $$ frac{5!}{3!2!}$$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$













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                    5 Answers
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                    active

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                    5 Answers
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                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    Maybe, looking at an example clarifies this best :



                    You have $20$ objects and have to choose $5$ of them. How many possibilities are there ?



                    You have $20,19,18,17,16$ choices explaining how $frac{20!}{15!}$ comes into the play.



                    Now each combination can appear in $5!$ possible orders which correspond to the same combination. Therefore we have to divide by $5!$ to find the number of combinations.



                    This can be generalized to arbitary numbers explaining how the binomial coefficient emerges.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$


















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Maybe, looking at an example clarifies this best :



                      You have $20$ objects and have to choose $5$ of them. How many possibilities are there ?



                      You have $20,19,18,17,16$ choices explaining how $frac{20!}{15!}$ comes into the play.



                      Now each combination can appear in $5!$ possible orders which correspond to the same combination. Therefore we have to divide by $5!$ to find the number of combinations.



                      This can be generalized to arbitary numbers explaining how the binomial coefficient emerges.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$
















                        2












                        2








                        2





                        $begingroup$

                        Maybe, looking at an example clarifies this best :



                        You have $20$ objects and have to choose $5$ of them. How many possibilities are there ?



                        You have $20,19,18,17,16$ choices explaining how $frac{20!}{15!}$ comes into the play.



                        Now each combination can appear in $5!$ possible orders which correspond to the same combination. Therefore we have to divide by $5!$ to find the number of combinations.



                        This can be generalized to arbitary numbers explaining how the binomial coefficient emerges.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$



                        Maybe, looking at an example clarifies this best :



                        You have $20$ objects and have to choose $5$ of them. How many possibilities are there ?



                        You have $20,19,18,17,16$ choices explaining how $frac{20!}{15!}$ comes into the play.



                        Now each combination can appear in $5!$ possible orders which correspond to the same combination. Therefore we have to divide by $5!$ to find the number of combinations.



                        This can be generalized to arbitary numbers explaining how the binomial coefficient emerges.







                        share|cite|improve this answer












                        share|cite|improve this answer



                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        answered 6 hours ago









                        PeterPeter

                        47.7k1139131




                        47.7k1139131























                            2












                            $begingroup$

                            Let's bunch together permutations that have the same content. Each resulting equivalence class has $k!$ members. Therefore, the number of such classes is $k!$ times smaller than the number of permutations. A combination is just an equivalence class or, if you prefer, one nominated element thereof.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$


















                              2












                              $begingroup$

                              Let's bunch together permutations that have the same content. Each resulting equivalence class has $k!$ members. Therefore, the number of such classes is $k!$ times smaller than the number of permutations. A combination is just an equivalence class or, if you prefer, one nominated element thereof.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$
















                                2












                                2








                                2





                                $begingroup$

                                Let's bunch together permutations that have the same content. Each resulting equivalence class has $k!$ members. Therefore, the number of such classes is $k!$ times smaller than the number of permutations. A combination is just an equivalence class or, if you prefer, one nominated element thereof.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                Let's bunch together permutations that have the same content. Each resulting equivalence class has $k!$ members. Therefore, the number of such classes is $k!$ times smaller than the number of permutations. A combination is just an equivalence class or, if you prefer, one nominated element thereof.







                                share|cite|improve this answer












                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                answered 5 hours ago









                                J.G.J.G.

                                27.5k22843




                                27.5k22843























                                    1












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Assume that you want to know the number of combinations of $k$ elements out of $n$ elements. One way to pick such a combination is the arrange all $n$ elements in any arbitrary order (there are $n!$ ways to do so) and pick the first $k$ of them as "your selection". As the remaining $n-k$ elements can be arranged in any order, each ordered selection of the first $k$ elements appears $(n-k)!$ times in the set of all permutations of the $n$ elements, so you have to divide $n!$ by $(n-k)!$ to count the different (ordered) "selections" of $k$ elements. Now, as you are not interested in the order of the $k$ elements, all $k!$ permutations of a "selection" represent the same combination, so you still have to divide the number by $k!$, which makes a total of $frac{n!}{k!(n-k)!}$ combinations. So, in short, this dividing "removes the order" when counting (here: the order of the first $k$ elements and the order of the remaining $n-k$ elements).






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$


















                                      1












                                      $begingroup$

                                      Assume that you want to know the number of combinations of $k$ elements out of $n$ elements. One way to pick such a combination is the arrange all $n$ elements in any arbitrary order (there are $n!$ ways to do so) and pick the first $k$ of them as "your selection". As the remaining $n-k$ elements can be arranged in any order, each ordered selection of the first $k$ elements appears $(n-k)!$ times in the set of all permutations of the $n$ elements, so you have to divide $n!$ by $(n-k)!$ to count the different (ordered) "selections" of $k$ elements. Now, as you are not interested in the order of the $k$ elements, all $k!$ permutations of a "selection" represent the same combination, so you still have to divide the number by $k!$, which makes a total of $frac{n!}{k!(n-k)!}$ combinations. So, in short, this dividing "removes the order" when counting (here: the order of the first $k$ elements and the order of the remaining $n-k$ elements).






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$
















                                        1












                                        1








                                        1





                                        $begingroup$

                                        Assume that you want to know the number of combinations of $k$ elements out of $n$ elements. One way to pick such a combination is the arrange all $n$ elements in any arbitrary order (there are $n!$ ways to do so) and pick the first $k$ of them as "your selection". As the remaining $n-k$ elements can be arranged in any order, each ordered selection of the first $k$ elements appears $(n-k)!$ times in the set of all permutations of the $n$ elements, so you have to divide $n!$ by $(n-k)!$ to count the different (ordered) "selections" of $k$ elements. Now, as you are not interested in the order of the $k$ elements, all $k!$ permutations of a "selection" represent the same combination, so you still have to divide the number by $k!$, which makes a total of $frac{n!}{k!(n-k)!}$ combinations. So, in short, this dividing "removes the order" when counting (here: the order of the first $k$ elements and the order of the remaining $n-k$ elements).






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        Assume that you want to know the number of combinations of $k$ elements out of $n$ elements. One way to pick such a combination is the arrange all $n$ elements in any arbitrary order (there are $n!$ ways to do so) and pick the first $k$ of them as "your selection". As the remaining $n-k$ elements can be arranged in any order, each ordered selection of the first $k$ elements appears $(n-k)!$ times in the set of all permutations of the $n$ elements, so you have to divide $n!$ by $(n-k)!$ to count the different (ordered) "selections" of $k$ elements. Now, as you are not interested in the order of the $k$ elements, all $k!$ permutations of a "selection" represent the same combination, so you still have to divide the number by $k!$, which makes a total of $frac{n!}{k!(n-k)!}$ combinations. So, in short, this dividing "removes the order" when counting (here: the order of the first $k$ elements and the order of the remaining $n-k$ elements).







                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                        answered 4 hours ago









                                        Wolfgang KaisWolfgang Kais

                                        5665




                                        5665























                                            1












                                            $begingroup$

                                            This is the formula for selecting from a distinct list of items. Lets say we pick from 100 songs on a top song list. We only care to pick the top 5 songs. Okay, there are 100! ways to arrange the songs on the original list. Once we take off the top 5, two things happen. The order of the remaining 95 don't matter they aren't the top 5, dividing by 95! cuts that away. We don't care what order the Top 5 are played in, so we divide out the possible orders those top 5 could have, 5! in total number. This arrives us at: $$frac{100!}{(95!)(5!)}$$



                                            EDIT: To show why distinctness matters, Here's a case, where it won't give you the number of distinguishable states chessboard positions (legal or not, with all 32 pieces). Why because you have 2 each of indistinguishable rooks,knights,and bishops on each side, as well as 8 indistinguishable pawns on each. This means there are 2×2×2×2×2×2×40,560×40,560= 105,287,270,400 times as many positions if you distinguish between indistinguisable pieces swapping places. brings it less than $1.22times 10^{78}$ instead of more than 1.26 times 10 to the 89 .






                                            share|cite|improve this answer










                                            New contributor




                                            Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                            $endgroup$


















                                              1












                                              $begingroup$

                                              This is the formula for selecting from a distinct list of items. Lets say we pick from 100 songs on a top song list. We only care to pick the top 5 songs. Okay, there are 100! ways to arrange the songs on the original list. Once we take off the top 5, two things happen. The order of the remaining 95 don't matter they aren't the top 5, dividing by 95! cuts that away. We don't care what order the Top 5 are played in, so we divide out the possible orders those top 5 could have, 5! in total number. This arrives us at: $$frac{100!}{(95!)(5!)}$$



                                              EDIT: To show why distinctness matters, Here's a case, where it won't give you the number of distinguishable states chessboard positions (legal or not, with all 32 pieces). Why because you have 2 each of indistinguishable rooks,knights,and bishops on each side, as well as 8 indistinguishable pawns on each. This means there are 2×2×2×2×2×2×40,560×40,560= 105,287,270,400 times as many positions if you distinguish between indistinguisable pieces swapping places. brings it less than $1.22times 10^{78}$ instead of more than 1.26 times 10 to the 89 .






                                              share|cite|improve this answer










                                              New contributor




                                              Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                              Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                              $endgroup$
















                                                1












                                                1








                                                1





                                                $begingroup$

                                                This is the formula for selecting from a distinct list of items. Lets say we pick from 100 songs on a top song list. We only care to pick the top 5 songs. Okay, there are 100! ways to arrange the songs on the original list. Once we take off the top 5, two things happen. The order of the remaining 95 don't matter they aren't the top 5, dividing by 95! cuts that away. We don't care what order the Top 5 are played in, so we divide out the possible orders those top 5 could have, 5! in total number. This arrives us at: $$frac{100!}{(95!)(5!)}$$



                                                EDIT: To show why distinctness matters, Here's a case, where it won't give you the number of distinguishable states chessboard positions (legal or not, with all 32 pieces). Why because you have 2 each of indistinguishable rooks,knights,and bishops on each side, as well as 8 indistinguishable pawns on each. This means there are 2×2×2×2×2×2×40,560×40,560= 105,287,270,400 times as many positions if you distinguish between indistinguisable pieces swapping places. brings it less than $1.22times 10^{78}$ instead of more than 1.26 times 10 to the 89 .






                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                New contributor




                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                $endgroup$



                                                This is the formula for selecting from a distinct list of items. Lets say we pick from 100 songs on a top song list. We only care to pick the top 5 songs. Okay, there are 100! ways to arrange the songs on the original list. Once we take off the top 5, two things happen. The order of the remaining 95 don't matter they aren't the top 5, dividing by 95! cuts that away. We don't care what order the Top 5 are played in, so we divide out the possible orders those top 5 could have, 5! in total number. This arrives us at: $$frac{100!}{(95!)(5!)}$$



                                                EDIT: To show why distinctness matters, Here's a case, where it won't give you the number of distinguishable states chessboard positions (legal or not, with all 32 pieces). Why because you have 2 each of indistinguishable rooks,knights,and bishops on each side, as well as 8 indistinguishable pawns on each. This means there are 2×2×2×2×2×2×40,560×40,560= 105,287,270,400 times as many positions if you distinguish between indistinguisable pieces swapping places. brings it less than $1.22times 10^{78}$ instead of more than 1.26 times 10 to the 89 .







                                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                                New contributor




                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                                share|cite|improve this answer








                                                edited 17 mins ago





















                                                New contributor




                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                answered 4 hours ago









                                                Roddy MacPheeRoddy MacPhee

                                                6010




                                                6010




                                                New contributor




                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                                New contributor





                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                Roddy MacPhee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                                                    0












                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    Imagine you have $5$ sports cars that are to be displayed in an event, but there are only 3 spots avaiable. Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari, Porsche, and Bugatti.



                                                    Let's say you choose a Mercedez, a Ferrari, and a Lamborghini. There are $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ ways to arrange these cars



                                                    Notice, however, that the display (Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari) is the same display as (Mercedez, Ferrari, Lamborghini) because you have the same selection of cars. You can arrange $3$ objects in $3!$ ways and still have the same collection of objects.



                                                    Therefore you must divide the $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ by $3!$, leading to $$ frac{5!}{3!2!}$$.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                    $endgroup$


















                                                      0












                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      Imagine you have $5$ sports cars that are to be displayed in an event, but there are only 3 spots avaiable. Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari, Porsche, and Bugatti.



                                                      Let's say you choose a Mercedez, a Ferrari, and a Lamborghini. There are $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ ways to arrange these cars



                                                      Notice, however, that the display (Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari) is the same display as (Mercedez, Ferrari, Lamborghini) because you have the same selection of cars. You can arrange $3$ objects in $3!$ ways and still have the same collection of objects.



                                                      Therefore you must divide the $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ by $3!$, leading to $$ frac{5!}{3!2!}$$.






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                                      $endgroup$
















                                                        0












                                                        0








                                                        0





                                                        $begingroup$

                                                        Imagine you have $5$ sports cars that are to be displayed in an event, but there are only 3 spots avaiable. Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari, Porsche, and Bugatti.



                                                        Let's say you choose a Mercedez, a Ferrari, and a Lamborghini. There are $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ ways to arrange these cars



                                                        Notice, however, that the display (Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari) is the same display as (Mercedez, Ferrari, Lamborghini) because you have the same selection of cars. You can arrange $3$ objects in $3!$ ways and still have the same collection of objects.



                                                        Therefore you must divide the $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ by $3!$, leading to $$ frac{5!}{3!2!}$$.






                                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                                        $endgroup$



                                                        Imagine you have $5$ sports cars that are to be displayed in an event, but there are only 3 spots avaiable. Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari, Porsche, and Bugatti.



                                                        Let's say you choose a Mercedez, a Ferrari, and a Lamborghini. There are $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ ways to arrange these cars



                                                        Notice, however, that the display (Lamborghini, Mercedez, Ferrari) is the same display as (Mercedez, Ferrari, Lamborghini) because you have the same selection of cars. You can arrange $3$ objects in $3!$ ways and still have the same collection of objects.



                                                        Therefore you must divide the $5 times 4 times 3 = 5!/2!$ by $3!$, leading to $$ frac{5!}{3!2!}$$.







                                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                                        answered 4 hours ago









                                                        Victor S.Victor S.

                                                        1799




                                                        1799






























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